Unkown problem/very poorly hen, any advice appreciated...
- Thread starter kellybelly
- Start date
- Thread starter
- #32
- May 13, 2009
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Hello!
thank you, thank you, thank you! I will try to do all you say as best I can.
Firstly, I live in the UK ( but I am American) and unbeleivably, they don't have applesauce here! They have what they call applesauce but it is more like a "jam" and they use just a spoonfool of it on pork because it so sweet and sticky. I am not sure if it would be ok to use that instead. The last two times I made the mixture, I blended up some apple to make an apple sauce but of course, it didnt have added pectin to it so Im not sure that it would help. what do you think?
thank you, thank you, thank you! I will try to do all you say as best I can.
Firstly, I live in the UK ( but I am American) and unbeleivably, they don't have applesauce here! They have what they call applesauce but it is more like a "jam" and they use just a spoonfool of it on pork because it so sweet and sticky. I am not sure if it would be ok to use that instead. The last two times I made the mixture, I blended up some apple to make an apple sauce but of course, it didnt have added pectin to it so Im not sure that it would help. what do you think?
I'm curious whether the hen has any evidence of feathers lost near the vent, urate leakage (or urine leakage), any white or black waxy or powdery marks at all near her vent, inflammation of her vent, any lower abdoment puffiness?
She has just a very small amount of feather loss around the vent, not much. I can see no leakage, no white or black powdery or waxy marks, no inflammation of the vent BUT I can feel a pointed hard "something" on either side of the vent which at first really surprised me but then I felt one of my other girls and she had the same sort of thing only not as pointy ( this other bird is much older so I guessed that was why). Im not exactly sure about the lower abdoment puffiness, do you mean the area benath her chest and towards the area between her legs? If so, It is difficult to tell but I would say it felt ok. She is very thin and weighs almost nothing, it's all feather...
She has just a very small amount of feather loss around the vent, not much. I can see no leakage, no white or black powdery or waxy marks, no inflammation of the vent BUT I can feel a pointed hard "something" on either side of the vent which at first really surprised me but then I felt one of my other girls and she had the same sort of thing only not as pointy ( this other bird is much older so I guessed that was why). Im not exactly sure about the lower abdoment puffiness, do you mean the area benath her chest and towards the area between her legs? If so, It is difficult to tell but I would say it felt ok. She is very thin and weighs almost nothing, it's all feather...
What is her actual usual diet? Is your food less than a month old, kept in an air-tight light-proof cool container? Did she, previous to this, just get introduced to free ranging? Does she have granite-grit available daily? Has she ever been exposed to heavy rains (on the ground more so than on her body), soured or wet or old feed (especially those containing any corn), excessively dusty or older scratch feeds, etc? Any algae water, compost piles, decaying vegetation such as leaf piles, wet hay,etc?
Her diet has been layers pellets up until about a week or so ago when we found organic layers pellets and started feeding that instead. We also gave them a couple of handfuls of mixed corn/grain scattered around the grass as a treat most days but not all and they have the oaccasional bit of fruit, mostly grapes or strawberries. Yes, the pellets were kept in an air-tight, light proof container.
The problems started not long after we got her, maybe a week or couple weeks after, very mildly with the slight head tilt at first, and yes, we introduced her to free ranging, she was not a free range before we bought her. She has shell-grit available daily. She has been exposed to fairly heavy rain. We leave the door to their house and run open every day so they can go in and out when they like but sometimes, they preferred to sat out when it rained, often standing underneath their raised house or even in our sheletered doorway waiting to be invited in
!
She would, for awhile, have had access to a few mouldy pellets on the floor of their run. This is because we used a dog bowl to hold their food which had some gaps underneath it and when the food would be knocked out of the dish some would work its way under the dish and of course, it being England, the damp would very quickly turn it mouldy. When I lifted the dish to wash it out I found these mouldy pellets there. At first I didnt realise they could be troublesome so I just brushed them off to the side of the run so she could have eaten them. I soon read that that could cause problems and we no longer use that dish etc and clean up anything that might be mouldy.
Their food is not excessively old but I have noticed that when I get towards the bottom of the bag, there is alot of dust there but I thought that was just the pellets all ground up?
she also could have drank water with Algae in it, we have some places where water will collect and stay for awhile...
You have been such a fountain of knowledge and help, thank you so much for taking the time to write all this info.
And to Nif, The backwards thing happened for the first time yesterday when I made that video. Usually she is moving forward and falling over badly. And another thank you to you for being so kind and truly helpful.
The middle girl is "dot", she is an Appenzeller, originated from Switzerland. She is a rare breed and we were told rare breeds dont lay that well, but she has been a very reliable girl and very hardy. We get a lovely pure white egg almost every day ( we generally only have brown eggs here so the white egg is fun for a change).
You both, and the others who have chimed in, have been a great support. It is greatly appreciated. I will let you know how things get on with our regime...Oh, also, Three horse, if you can let me know about the applesauce and what you think about that, it would be great. I will improvise till then..
bye for now!
Her diet has been layers pellets up until about a week or so ago when we found organic layers pellets and started feeding that instead. We also gave them a couple of handfuls of mixed corn/grain scattered around the grass as a treat most days but not all and they have the oaccasional bit of fruit, mostly grapes or strawberries. Yes, the pellets were kept in an air-tight, light proof container.
The problems started not long after we got her, maybe a week or couple weeks after, very mildly with the slight head tilt at first, and yes, we introduced her to free ranging, she was not a free range before we bought her. She has shell-grit available daily. She has been exposed to fairly heavy rain. We leave the door to their house and run open every day so they can go in and out when they like but sometimes, they preferred to sat out when it rained, often standing underneath their raised house or even in our sheletered doorway waiting to be invited in
She would, for awhile, have had access to a few mouldy pellets on the floor of their run. This is because we used a dog bowl to hold their food which had some gaps underneath it and when the food would be knocked out of the dish some would work its way under the dish and of course, it being England, the damp would very quickly turn it mouldy. When I lifted the dish to wash it out I found these mouldy pellets there. At first I didnt realise they could be troublesome so I just brushed them off to the side of the run so she could have eaten them. I soon read that that could cause problems and we no longer use that dish etc and clean up anything that might be mouldy.
Their food is not excessively old but I have noticed that when I get towards the bottom of the bag, there is alot of dust there but I thought that was just the pellets all ground up?
she also could have drank water with Algae in it, we have some places where water will collect and stay for awhile...
You have been such a fountain of knowledge and help, thank you so much for taking the time to write all this info.
And to Nif, The backwards thing happened for the first time yesterday when I made that video. Usually she is moving forward and falling over badly. And another thank you to you for being so kind and truly helpful.
The middle girl is "dot", she is an Appenzeller, originated from Switzerland. She is a rare breed and we were told rare breeds dont lay that well, but she has been a very reliable girl and very hardy. We get a lovely pure white egg almost every day ( we generally only have brown eggs here so the white egg is fun for a change).
You both, and the others who have chimed in, have been a great support. It is greatly appreciated. I will let you know how things get on with our regime...Oh, also, Three horse, if you can let me know about the applesauce and what you think about that, it would be great. I will improvise till then..
bye for now!
You're very welcome.
On the applesauce, if you make your own, the pectin is in the apple already. That should be fine as long as you just make sure to grind it up into a very fine applesauce consistency so that the gizzard doesn't have to work hard.
You mentioned a small amount of feather loss around the vent, but not a bald one - that's good, as is "no leakage". The pointy areas near the vent are likely the pubic bones to either side. Good on no inflammation or anything else marked abotu the vent.
On the lower abdomen, I mean pretty much under her vent to between her legs. Does she feel like she's holding any fluid, eggs, or anything else there. The thin-ness is what I expected - wanted to make sure.
The diet sounds good and normal. I wonder what her diet was before.. The organic layer, it's completely fortified (including vitamins) correct? I'm not sure what labeling policies are there.
Silly hens - ours stand in the rain, too. The turkeys are the worst at it. Everything else there sounds normal. I'm wondering what about the transition from her previous home to yours triggered it, for surely it did.
The problem might have been building up before and just was triggered with the stress of the move, change of diet, etc.
I suspect that the moldy pellets might have been the initial cause. I was looking for this sort of clue. We have the same type of climate here in Texas - very humid - and it only takes a pellet being down for a bit for mildew to happen. She probably just naturally also picked up more of that while free ranging; scratching under leaves, etc. We should definitely focus on this as one issue and correct it for her.
And as far as the dust goes, ours gets dusty at the bottom, too. Usually I try to tell by smell and looking at the bag. The food should smell strongly of fresh ingredients, not terribly dusty. The bag should look good and new - so wrinkling from humidity, no watermarks, no beetle bore holes, etc.
And my chickens drink from the most horrible puddles of water... no matter what clean water we give (at least the turkeys like the clean water better).
I think there's more to this than simply mycotoxins from mildew and fungus in her system. But that's definitely a factor as it causes neurological symptoms, paralysis, ataxia, etc etc. It also causes deficiencies of oil vitamins which leave the bird more susceptible to other issues. The inflammation of the digestive tract cause the bird to not absorb usual nutrients, and the bombarding of the digestive tract with the pathogenic fungi causes the normal healthy yeast cells (which produce B vitamins, without which 'wry neck' symptoms can happen) to die off.
I definitely would still recommend treating heavily with probiotics and OACV, the oil vitamins (which we'll have to figure out how you can do that there - I'm wondering if you don't have a baby-vitamin in a liquid/oil form there similar to polyvisol here) to replenish that which is short, etc.
Were you doing B vitamin supplementation?
Ohhh an Appenzeller! That's hysterical - I've never seen a picture of anyone's private stock. She's very cute! They're all quite lovely!
I'm glad we can try to help.
On the applesauce, if you make your own, the pectin is in the apple already. That should be fine as long as you just make sure to grind it up into a very fine applesauce consistency so that the gizzard doesn't have to work hard.
You mentioned a small amount of feather loss around the vent, but not a bald one - that's good, as is "no leakage". The pointy areas near the vent are likely the pubic bones to either side. Good on no inflammation or anything else marked abotu the vent.
On the lower abdomen, I mean pretty much under her vent to between her legs. Does she feel like she's holding any fluid, eggs, or anything else there. The thin-ness is what I expected - wanted to make sure.
The diet sounds good and normal. I wonder what her diet was before.. The organic layer, it's completely fortified (including vitamins) correct? I'm not sure what labeling policies are there.
Silly hens - ours stand in the rain, too. The turkeys are the worst at it. Everything else there sounds normal. I'm wondering what about the transition from her previous home to yours triggered it, for surely it did.
The problem might have been building up before and just was triggered with the stress of the move, change of diet, etc.
I suspect that the moldy pellets might have been the initial cause. I was looking for this sort of clue. We have the same type of climate here in Texas - very humid - and it only takes a pellet being down for a bit for mildew to happen. She probably just naturally also picked up more of that while free ranging; scratching under leaves, etc. We should definitely focus on this as one issue and correct it for her.
And as far as the dust goes, ours gets dusty at the bottom, too. Usually I try to tell by smell and looking at the bag. The food should smell strongly of fresh ingredients, not terribly dusty. The bag should look good and new - so wrinkling from humidity, no watermarks, no beetle bore holes, etc.
And my chickens drink from the most horrible puddles of water... no matter what clean water we give (at least the turkeys like the clean water better).
I think there's more to this than simply mycotoxins from mildew and fungus in her system. But that's definitely a factor as it causes neurological symptoms, paralysis, ataxia, etc etc. It also causes deficiencies of oil vitamins which leave the bird more susceptible to other issues. The inflammation of the digestive tract cause the bird to not absorb usual nutrients, and the bombarding of the digestive tract with the pathogenic fungi causes the normal healthy yeast cells (which produce B vitamins, without which 'wry neck' symptoms can happen) to die off.
I definitely would still recommend treating heavily with probiotics and OACV, the oil vitamins (which we'll have to figure out how you can do that there - I'm wondering if you don't have a baby-vitamin in a liquid/oil form there similar to polyvisol here) to replenish that which is short, etc.
Were you doing B vitamin supplementation?
Ohhh an Appenzeller! That's hysterical - I've never seen a picture of anyone's private stock. She's very cute! They're all quite lovely!
I'm glad we can try to help.
- Thread starter
- #35
- May 13, 2009
- 30
- 0
- 22
Hi Nathalie,
I am implementing your suggestions, with a few modified bits here and there where I have to. I tried making my own "applesauce" but our blender doesnt mince the apple up fine enough so I heated it up in a pan and then mushed it as best as I can. I am going to another shop tomorrow so will be able to get some apple baby food then. I did also improvise with a tiny bit of apple juice.
I am going to order the vitamins off the net tonight because the only ones our local shop sells are in very large amounts and are extremely pricey at around £50 ( about $95USD) ! I think they can post them quickly so hopefully I should have them Tuesday. In the mean time I have given her a bit of Vit E and then another time I broke open an omega 3 capsule and mixed half the capsule into the mix. We do have liquid ( not oil based) vitamins for our guinea pigs but I have no idea if they would suitable be so I have not considered using them...
She is eating the mix really well, only having problems with her hitting the mark, if you know what i mean, because her balance and co-ordination is off, she pecks but misses the food. Still, with perserverance, we get there in the end and she does gobble it all up.
During the evening I bring her in our house, in a box and during the daytime ( it has been pretty good weather here for the last couple days) I have been putting her the sick house ( guinea pig run, with covered house).
Our organic pellets are really small compared to the regular ones so I have put a small handful in with her just in case she wants to try some but I noticed that she has not eaten any. She has not had any of her regular food for a good few days now. When I let her out of the run once, she did peck at some grass and strangely, ate 2 bees!?? They were miner bees, they live in the ground and she seemed to think they were pretty yummy but I was worried about her getting stung so I took her away.
I havent seen her have any water either so I have been dipping her beak into the water mix and then dipping her the other way so that she can swallow ok. Despite me doing this, she still seems to only have had a very small bit of water. I suppose she is getting some fluid through the food mix I have been giving her.
I gave the abdomen area another feel tonight and I did actually feel what seemed to be a bit of swelling, or puffiness? I didnt feel hard and she was about to go to sleep so I hated to keep feeling it and disturbing her. I will have a better feel tomorrow morning.
The organic food breaks down as follows:
Protein 16%
Fibre 6.0%
Moisture 13.8%
Oil 4.0 %
Ash 13.5%
Methionine 0.3%
On the tag that was on the bag, it says:
"This natural, drug free feed is ideally suited for birds kept in free range or not intensive conditions and not intended to be a high performance diet intensive or commercial production.
There are no coccidiostats or growth promoters in this feed. There are not articial colourants or yolk pigmenters in this feed.
Organic wheat, organic soya, calcium carbonate, organic alfalfa, organic peas, organic maize, natural vitamins, Di-calcium phosphate, organic linseed, sea salt, marigold leaves.
the methionine and ivsine in this feed are naturally occuring. No synthetic amino acids are added. All ingrediants are non-GM. "
On the outside of the bag it says " with Omega 3 oils, our feeds only use a virgin pressed soya , not extracted using the solvent hexane..."
I dont know what her diet was before but I will give the chap a ring tomorrow to ask and also to see if he has had any problems with his other birds.
I have not given them any vitamins before. I have added poultry spice to thier feed to see if it would help at all with winnie but as far as I know it didnt help.
I am surprised you havent seen pics of people birds here before, there must be a page somwhere for members to show off their girls and guys!!
bye for now,
kelly
I am implementing your suggestions, with a few modified bits here and there where I have to. I tried making my own "applesauce" but our blender doesnt mince the apple up fine enough so I heated it up in a pan and then mushed it as best as I can. I am going to another shop tomorrow so will be able to get some apple baby food then. I did also improvise with a tiny bit of apple juice.
I am going to order the vitamins off the net tonight because the only ones our local shop sells are in very large amounts and are extremely pricey at around £50 ( about $95USD) ! I think they can post them quickly so hopefully I should have them Tuesday. In the mean time I have given her a bit of Vit E and then another time I broke open an omega 3 capsule and mixed half the capsule into the mix. We do have liquid ( not oil based) vitamins for our guinea pigs but I have no idea if they would suitable be so I have not considered using them...
She is eating the mix really well, only having problems with her hitting the mark, if you know what i mean, because her balance and co-ordination is off, she pecks but misses the food. Still, with perserverance, we get there in the end and she does gobble it all up.
During the evening I bring her in our house, in a box and during the daytime ( it has been pretty good weather here for the last couple days) I have been putting her the sick house ( guinea pig run, with covered house).
Our organic pellets are really small compared to the regular ones so I have put a small handful in with her just in case she wants to try some but I noticed that she has not eaten any. She has not had any of her regular food for a good few days now. When I let her out of the run once, she did peck at some grass and strangely, ate 2 bees!?? They were miner bees, they live in the ground and she seemed to think they were pretty yummy but I was worried about her getting stung so I took her away.
I havent seen her have any water either so I have been dipping her beak into the water mix and then dipping her the other way so that she can swallow ok. Despite me doing this, she still seems to only have had a very small bit of water. I suppose she is getting some fluid through the food mix I have been giving her.
I gave the abdomen area another feel tonight and I did actually feel what seemed to be a bit of swelling, or puffiness? I didnt feel hard and she was about to go to sleep so I hated to keep feeling it and disturbing her. I will have a better feel tomorrow morning.
The organic food breaks down as follows:
Protein 16%
Fibre 6.0%
Moisture 13.8%
Oil 4.0 %
Ash 13.5%
Methionine 0.3%
On the tag that was on the bag, it says:
"This natural, drug free feed is ideally suited for birds kept in free range or not intensive conditions and not intended to be a high performance diet intensive or commercial production.
There are no coccidiostats or growth promoters in this feed. There are not articial colourants or yolk pigmenters in this feed.
Organic wheat, organic soya, calcium carbonate, organic alfalfa, organic peas, organic maize, natural vitamins, Di-calcium phosphate, organic linseed, sea salt, marigold leaves.
the methionine and ivsine in this feed are naturally occuring. No synthetic amino acids are added. All ingrediants are non-GM. "
On the outside of the bag it says " with Omega 3 oils, our feeds only use a virgin pressed soya , not extracted using the solvent hexane..."
I dont know what her diet was before but I will give the chap a ring tomorrow to ask and also to see if he has had any problems with his other birds.
I have not given them any vitamins before. I have added poultry spice to thier feed to see if it would help at all with winnie but as far as I know it didnt help.
I am surprised you havent seen pics of people birds here before, there must be a page somwhere for members to show off their girls and guys!!
bye for now,
kelly
Last edited:
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