UPDATED PICS of Sammy!Antibiotics for dog related injuries on hen!

[19hhbelgian]

Had a very bad day today... We live in an old farm house and the basement door is wood with an 1800's thumb latch on it. It swells up and doesn't always close properly. Today was one of those days

Hubby used the door and didn't double check it. We left the house, and 2 of our dogs got outside with my girls. My smallest dog did the most damage killing 2 of my polish hens, and injuring my Salmon Favrolle. One of my australorps has no tail, but is ok other wise. My 2, 4 month old girls ran outside the yard so the dogs couldn't get them (thank god for small miracles)...

My main question is can I give Sammy anything other than penecillin for her wounds? I have penecillin on hand so it's not a problem, but is there something I can give her in her water maybe? She had 2 open wounds. 1 needed us to stitch it shut, which is the one I'm concerned about infection in. I cleaned both wounds out with surgical scrub, and used blue kote on them after all was said and done. She is hanging in but is unsteady on her feet. She was i shock, but I held her for quite a while and kept her quiet, and she relaxed and started clucking. Any advice would be wonderful & GREATLY appreciated!

NEW NEWS: Sammy is doing well. She is eating and drinking on her own, and her wound is doing very well - no yuckiness at all

Her right foot is hurt, and she limps on it when she walks, but for the most part she is staying off it... Sammy just needs time to heal now! Here is a pic of her wound that we stitched (there is blukote on it, so it looks strange):

Here's Sammy in her claimed corner:

 

[threehorses]

I'm going to paste an article at the end of this that might help you. I would use the Penicillin. Nothing in the water from the feedstore will be of use to you. Your other alternative, the better one, is to ask your vet for Baytril. But otherwise it's one of the penicillins. Not any of the -cyclines or -mycins, nor Tylan, nor LS50.

Injection is best. Which Penicillin do you have? It can wait until tomorrow.

The surgical scrub is great. It sounds like you're good. I would just brace yourself for the possibility of fly maggots. And keep her up for 2 days to keep her out of the reach of flies until the wounds dry more.

Also check her again tomorrow every inch of her to make sure you got every single wound.

Here's the article. Please email me or PM me if you need any help or just support.

The dogs have been so bad lately! SO many injuries!

WOUND CARE IN POULTRY by Nathalie Ross

Here's my usual way of doing wounds. It's worked for some pretty extreme wounds, including one 2x1 wound that went all the way down to the silver covering of the spine of one bird.

First, gather materials:
VetWrap or similar self-adhesive wrap.
gauze wrapping type bandages or squares (depending on what you have to bandage)
non-stick pads (depending on what you have to wrap)
antibiotic ointment (neosporin, Swat for horses if you have flies around)
hydrogen peroxide (h202)
iodine
warm water
a needleless syringe - preferably a big one like 30 cc's
suture material if you need it (this ideally should be left to a vet)
a small pair of scissors like cuticle scissors are helpful
large scissors
(duct tape in some cases)
a good safe blood clotter. I prefer Clotisol as it's not poisonous and clots IMMEDIATELY even in high blood situations. You can even use it inside of beaks. It's water based, lasts ages for a small bottle. Seriously - ages. You can pretty much only get it online, but it's a must-have for a cabinet. Once you use it, you won't go back.
q-tips
papertowels
clean clothes that can be stained

DECIDING WHETHER OR NOT TO TREAT BY YOURSELF:
First, an important note. It would be ideal if, as poultry owners faced with an injured bird, that the bird be taken to a qualified veterinarian who can not only dress the wounds, access the damage, but also prescribe the correct antibiotics and follow up as necessary. This, first and foremost, is what I recommend for any wound situation that is more than minor. Please take that to heart.

If instead you decide to treat the wound yourself, here are some basic instructions on how to do so. Note that every wound, every case, is different. Use your common sense and imagination on determining when this protocol must be flexed to fit your situation.

PREPARATION:
First, examine the bird and find all wounds. Use your big and little scissors to trim feathers away from the area. Try to only take as many as could touch the wound, no more - they need feather protection and the feathers won't grow back til next moult. Also be careful, if wing feathers are near, not to cut the living flesh part inside feather quills.

If the wounds are under the wing, sometimes you can simply wrap the wing in a t-shirt to keep whatever touches the wing clean. Baby tshirts would be great for this. Neck part at the top of the wing, fitted with a little duct tape on the cloth (not tight please) and just tie the other end of the tshirt.

Make sure to look very carefully against the skin for puncture wounds. There might not be look, and puncture wounds are tricky and hard to find. Note the location and severity of all wounds.

Cleansing:
Take your syringe and fill with H202 (straight) or h202 slightly diluted with water. Use the syringe to vigously clean the wound area including in the wounds. If the wounds are puncture wounds, use diluted water/h202, not straight. You only use h202 the first time as it tends to burn tissues and keep them from healing if you continue. But it's great for bubbling out bits of dirt from inside the wound. Do this cleansing about three times per wound.

Follow up by rinsing out the h2o2 with a water/iodine mixture made to be just the color of slightly strong iced tea. You want it warm. Fill your same syringe that you used with the h2o2 and flush the wounds rather vigorously.

At this time, if there are any pieces of flesh that need to be removed, remove them. This is where I use a q-tip dipped in a bottle-cap full of clotisol (so you don't contaminate the original bottle).

Doing this on a table that's ok to stain is best. I've done this on my truck's tail gate as I can clean it afterwards. Place a lot of papertowels under the birds for these two cleansing phases to keep the drainoff from going everywhere.

Use another clean papertowel to dry the wound. You want to leave some iodine solution inside the wound - it doesn't have to be skin-dry. Just dry enough for some ointment to stick.

DRESSING:
Once the wound is well cleaned, then you'll want to dress it. I use Neosporin and q-tips most often for this job. If there are flies in the area at all, I will use Neosporin inside the wounds (ointment) and use Swat wound ointment for horses instead. (It has fly repellent that's safe for poultry in it.) I fill punctures with neosporin. If they're deep, I stick the top of the tube into the wound (and throw away the tube after I'm done with everything). Pack it. You usually want air in a wound, but puncture wounds can sometimes heal on top first and leave a pocket inside. The antibiotic ointment (not creme) is a little insurance against too much bacteria and thus abcesses.

If the wound is one that absolutely must be stitched, then pack it with the antibiotic ointment. If you're using a flyproof ointment, wipe the wound and then use the fly-proof on top. Otherwise just wipe slightly so there's a little antibiotic ointment on the important top part of the wound. You don't want to stray too far from just the wound, keep the bird dry.

On closing wounds with sutures. Puncture wounds shouldn't be sutured. Bad bacteria love a place where there's no oxygen. Suturing closes the wound and encourages festering within. As much air as you can get to a wound, the better, except that the interior of punctures should have some antibacterial action going on.

I've had some serious wounds in my flock before. The only time I've sutured was when a very large flap of skin was torn from the front of a neck (read as 3 inches by 10 inch flap). Another recent case involves a possible rather large hole in a crop which, should it leak food, should be sutured. Otherwise try to leave things open. Poultry can regrow an amazing amount of skin back if there's muscle underneath. New skin will granulate and grow in to fill in gaps that would surprise you.

On the areas that are just uncovered, I usually use antibiotic creme (versus ointment) because it's water based. Sometimes I'll just put a thin smear of antibiotic ointment, however, if that's what I have. Or fly-preventative ointment if there are flies in the area.

DRESSING WITH BANDAGES:
If at all possible, try not to cover with bandages. The average bandage keeps air out and moisture in and not in a good way. If you must bandage (a dirt floor area, extreme fly issues, etc) then try to keep the bandage to a minimum and very airy. That's why I'm not a big fan of nonstick bandages. They tend to trap moisture and cause a very warm airless area. But sometimes you have to use them. If so, cover the wound with the bandage. Wrap twice with very gauzey gauze wrap. Then put one layer only of VetWrap over. If you must secure (to keep the bandage from falling, for example) you can use very thin strips of duct tape like you would tape a birthday present. Using as little as possible, but a very strong tape like duct tape, helps let the air in.

Sometimes I've even used just one layer of a very clean paper towel rather than use a non-stick. Afterwards, if you have to remove it, you can soak with warm water and pick the bits out if it sticks. Gauze tends to embed in wound seepage.

Think out of the box when it comes to covering areas that are wounded. With my geese who had multiple puncture and surface wounds on their chest, and a high fly area, I used one white sheet that I formed into a sort of front-bib and tied behind their back. T-shirts are also awesome to cover a bird's body. Buy the appropriate size, slip the neck over their neck, their legs through the arm holes, cut two holes through which you slip their wings. Gather the bottom end (cut so that you don't cover their vent) at the top of their back and duct-tape the cloth to make it stay fitted. T-shirts are very airy, cheap, washable, and absorbent.

SUTURES:
If your bird requires stitches, suture material with thread attached can be found at many feedstores or purchased online ahead of time. The size you want is for dogs and cats. Sutures aren't stitched like a pillow case, but each stitch is its own knot. The semi-circular needles of suture needles are ideal for going into and out of the skin. Note: stitching is not easy - skin is tough, usually the needle is slippery, and it's rather tough to do. Overestimate the amount of suture material you need as you'll make knots and cut off the excess bit sticking up.

MAINTENANCE:
Many wounds, if properly cleaned and dressed and left airy, do not need much maintenance. Oddly, one of the best ways of telling whether or not a wound is doing well is by using your nose. Smell the wound at the time of cleaning. Wounds have a particular almost sweet but not cloyingly sweet smell. Remember the smell. Then smell the wound daily to see if you smell rot. If you do, there's not enough air to the wound and possible infection going on.

Wounds will seep a little - that's natural and the body's way of dealing with wounds. Usually the seepage will be mostly clear and smell of wound. However, if there's any opaqueness to it, or clotted texture, that's infection. Also there will be some natural inflammation as the body tries to bully off the bad bacteria and bring in healing materials to the wound. However excessive inflammation, discoloration (especially black or green), should be noted.

If a wound needs cleaning or examining, take off what bandages you can gently. If they stick to the seepage from the wound, use warm water to soak the bandage parts remaining away from the drainage.

Then examine the wound, determine what needs to be done, and redress from the iodine stage onward.

ANTIBIOTICS:
Many wounds do not require additional antibiotics other than topical (on the skin) antibiotic dressings. However in the case of animal bites that weren't caught immediately, cat bites, and wounds that have been sitting or are particularly deep, it may be a good idea to treat with antibiotics. If you make this decision, please be sure to get one that is appropriate for wounds. The packages at the feedstore are not.

Penicillin G Procaine (Aqueous Pen-G) is commonly found at many feedstores in their fridge section. It's awesome to keep in your own fridge for a rainy day. It's a very thick antibiotic and requires a thicker gauge needle. I would use no thinner than a 22 gauge, preferably something more thick at a length of .75 to 1 inch. At many feedstores, you can buy 3 cc syringes that are together already with needles. These are nice to have on hand as well as that 30 cc syringe that you'll use to flush wounds.

Instructions on how to give an injection are available separately as well as how to treat with antibiotics. If you do choose to use injectable antibiotics, be prepared to go the entire recommended course. Penicillin G Procaine is a concentrated penicillin (they're not all created equally) and only is required to be given every other day. Based on the type of antibiotic you expect to use, buy that many syringes plus two.

HEALING:
Birds in healing mode need help being stabilized, nourished, and hydrated. We all know how delicate birds can be, but it's surprising how resilient they can be at times. However, wounds will often depress a bird or cause them to go into shock. A stressed or shocked bird may not be able to digest foods they're commonly given. For that reason, I recommend only giving easily dissolved feeds when a bird is in the first stages of recovery. Think crumbles, pellets, etc. You don't want to make a drastic change in their diet ever, much less when they're already stressed. If a bird is reluctant to eat, try wetting the pellets/crumbles. You can also add a boiled egg yolk (one per six cups of food) mashed into the crumbles. I like to also give probiotics (yogurt, Fastrack, Probiocs, acidophilus, or whatever I have available) during this time to combat a secondary intestinal disorder from stress and change of way of eating. Yogurt is simple. You can mix 1 tablespoon per two cups of feed.

The added protein in an egg yolk helps the bird to heal. Adding a capsule of vitamin E to that mash (one per 2 cups of mash) also helps healing. If the birds are stressy, or not able to eat normally, I'll use a vitamin/electrolyte mix in their water for the first few days. I never ever use an oral antibiotic for wound treatment. Period.

CONCLUSION:
It's unfortunately common that poultry are victims of predation and wounds. They are delicate and, with their ultra-fast metabolisms, can die readily if they decide to. Remember that an injured bird can often have internal injuries we never see. If you lose them, just remember you tried your best. However you might be surprised, with proper wound-care, how many of these birds recover to absolutely normal lives. Just be patient as healing takes a while. Usually separate the birds, but if they can be near their peers they take heart from it and will do better.

Good luck with your flock, and I hope this information has been helpful.
Nathalie Ross
(Please do not reproduce without permission of the author. The author is not a veterinarian and does not intend to dispense information that at all should replace the advice of a qualified avian vet.)

 

[dlhunicorn]

What I would suggest is a good general supplement like aviacharge 2000 and in addition to that three drops of Polyvisol enfamil once a day for a week then taper off the next ... initate this after you have given the one vit E tab (preferably the combo vitE/selenium tab> just make sure the selenium content does not exceed 50 MICROgrams) ... then start the polyvisol the next day > this will addriss any possible vit E deficiency (often borderline present). Excess E has been found to interfere with wound healing. Thiamine (vitamin B1),5 pantothenic acid (vitamin B5),6 and other B vitamins have all been shown to play a role in wound healing in animal studies. Vitamin C not calcium but vit C) is needed to make collagen (connective tissue) that strengthens skin, muscles, and blood vessels and to ensure proper wound healing. The polyvisol is a good easy to find and administer source of A B D and if I am not mistaken also C (not calcium but vitamin C) .

The specific aminoacid (amino acid = protein) associated with helping in wounds is Arginine
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/VM104
"....This essential amino acid, arginine, plays a very important role as a potent immunological modulator since the cellular metabolic pathway of arginine produces nitric oxide (Collier and Vallance, 1989). Sung et al., (1991) found that nitric oxide production of macrophages is increased by a local concentration of arginine. Additional improvements in immunity, as affected by dietary arginine in animals including humans, include improved thymic weight and function, enhanced lymphocyte mitogenesis, improved immunity against tumors and enhanced wound healing (Efron and Barbul, 1998; Evoy et al., 1998)....."

...off the top of my head I know that cottage cheese (would need to be low salt) and pecans (again no salt) are a good source of arganine.
ETA: Too much of any good thing is a bad thing... Just a wee bit of cottage cheese or crushed pecans >dont let your bird pig out on any "good" supplemental food.

 

[threehorses]

I'm curious, dlhunicorn - what are your thoughts on vitamin E used topically? I hadn't really thought much of it, but it occurred to me yesterday that ... well, I hadn't thought much on it before.

I keep meaning to give my chickens cottage cheese as it's one of those foods that has been recommended for literally decades (if not technically centuries now) for poultry. I just bought some for myself - might be a nice time to see how they take to it.


So any updates today on the hen?

 

[dlhunicorn]

I have seen in passing a few references (search page) references to topical use of vit E (mainly regerring to scarring issues) but I have not researched the matter

 

[threehorses]

Well I guess since it's topical, and not oral, then it wouldn't really interfere. I might try it next time I have a bird with injuries.

Hopefully I'll NEVER get around to that research. lol Thanks for the reply.

 

[19hhbelgian]

I thanks for all the advice! Sammy is doing well. Her wound was a tear rather than a simple puncture wound. We were considering a drain, but it was stitched up directly after the incident, and I had cleaned it asap with nolvasan surgical scrub, so it was good and clean. I also put a saddle on her to keep it clean and the flies off of it. I have her in with her buddies so that she would be less stressed, and she is eating and drinking very well on her own. She's still a little off balance, and sleeps on the floor under the perch, rather than flying up onto the perch, but I'm sure she's going to need some time to fully recover. Her stitched wound is doing very well - no oozing of anything, no discoloration, and absolutely no puffiness. We are away until sat. night, but I'll post pics of lucky Sammy then! We both thank everyone for their help!

 

[threehorses]

Nolvasan is such great stuff! If you find it looks like it needs a drain, you can always eventually cut out the bottom stitch, stitch in a large piece of surgical tubing, and then flush the wound from the top down to the bottom to cleanse it out without undoing the stitches. That's what I had to do once with a horse with a very bad leg injury. And good for the saddle- great idea. Just make sure she is eating, and I would give them all a vitamin/mineral/electrolyte package in their water if you're keeping her with them.

Good on the cleanness of her wound! Keep a good eye on sweet Sammy, and we'll be looking for pics!

Take care!