Vaccinate or Not

[FortCluck]

I'm puzzled here.

I thought the way it worked was this:

The chicks either have Mareks or they don't.
--If the chicks have Mareks, and are un-vaccinated, the chicks spread it to the older birds and all birds have a chance of dying.
--If the chicks have Mareks, and the chicks are vaccinated, the chicks spread it to the older birds (who might die) but the chicks have a higher chance of living.
--If the chicks do not have Mareks, it does not matter wether they are vaccinated or not, because all birds will be fine.

Am I mixed up here? I know it's been a lot of pages to read through, and I could have missed something.

Oh, I guess I missed one possibility:
--If the chicks have Mareks, and are un-vaccinated, they might look sick enough that you do not bring them home at all, thus preventing exposure of the existing flock.
(But I would assume even un-vaccinated chicks that have Mareks, probably have some time in which they are contagious but do not yet look sick, so I'm not sure it changes things very much.)

The reason why I don't vaccinate is because I have never had an instance where my chickens have Marek's.

Some people don't like the vaccination because it masks the symptoms so you might not realize it before it's too late if you have unvaccinated ones.

The vaccination helps alleviate the symptoms that they can get from the disease and usually there is a higher chance that they will live through the disease as it progresses.

This is what I have learned... It is a lot to read through

 

[Mixed flock enthusiast]

I'm puzzled here.

I thought the way it worked was this:

The chicks either have Mareks or they don't.
--If the chicks have Mareks, and are un-vaccinated, the chicks spread it to the older birds and all birds have a chance of dying.
--If the chicks have Mareks, and the chicks are vaccinated, the chicks spread it to the older birds (who might die) but the chicks have a higher chance of living.
--If the chicks do not have Mareks, it does not matter wether they are vaccinated or not, because all birds will be fine.

Am I mixed up here? I know it's been a lot of pages to read through, and I could have missed something.

Oh, I guess I missed one possibility:
--If the chicks have Mareks, and are un-vaccinated, they might look sick enough that you do not bring them home at all, thus preventing exposure of the existing flock.
(But I would assume even un-vaccinated chicks that have Mareks, probably have some time in which they are contagious but do not yet look sick, so I'm not sure it changes things very much.)

I understand the disease in the same way that you do. When I was a new chicken keeper, I had read the arguments for and against vaccination, and also that it was uncommon in backyard flocks, so bought unvaccinated chicks from a breeder. Those chicks had Marek’s and spread it to the rest of our chickens. I very much wish now that I had only added vaccinated chicks. Unless you have the very hottest strain of Marek’s, vaccination decreases viral shedding.

For those who maintain unvaccinated birds so that they can act as sentinels, what plans do you have if you do get Marek’s in your flock, and do you have a necropsy at a diagnostic lab performed for each bird that dies and n order to monitor for disease?

 

[ChocolateMouse]

I understand the disease in the same way that you do. When I was a new chicken keeper, I had read the arguments for and against vaccination, and also that it was uncommon in backyard flocks, so bought unvaccinated chicks from a breeder. Those chicks had Marek’s and spread it to the rest of our chickens. I very much wish now that I had only added vaccinated chicks. Unless you have the very hottest strain of Marek’s, vaccination decreases viral shedding.

For those who maintain unvaccinated birds so that they can act as sentinels, what plans do you have if you do get Marek’s in your flock, and do you have a necropsy at a diagnostic lab performed for each bird that dies and n order to monitor for disease?

Given that none of my chickens are vaccinated at this point if just one chicken dies suddenly I don't necropsy. But I know my flock well enough to see when any symptoms develop. The last death we had due to any sort of illness (rather than deliberate culling or predators) after 2 weeks of age (Mareks doesn't express until 6 weeks) was an egg bound australorp over two years ago. Prior to that I lost a 2 year old cornish cross over night two years before. She was otherwise robust and healthy so we assume heart attack. One year before that one older bird developed a cough, was quarantined and didn't get better with medication, and was culled. If memory serves that's the entire extent of our non-predator, non-chick non cull deaths in our flock over 6 years or so.

Even the mildest strains of the virus would show a lot more death and illness than that and all my birds are about it hit 2 years now and very robust. The birds I had before them were hitting 4-5 years of age before a coon got to them. (These birds were in chick quarantine at that time.) I also examine the organs of my culls carefully including slicing into organs (they get chopped up for my dogs) and have never seen anything surprising beyond the occasional fatty liver.

As it stands I've never had a reason to have a necropsy preformed. One dead chicken in two years in a largely unvaccinated flock is hardly grounds for Mareks in a flock and none of my current birds are vaccinated. As said previously the "milder" strains are still around 50% lethal and it's not like I have just a few birds - I have a dozen breeders and a number of chicks each year. As such it's reasonable to assume my flock is Mareks free. (Or surprisingly resistant and I'm secretly sitting on a gold mine, but Mareks free is MUCH more likely.)

If I did ever see any symptoms of Mareks or more consistent deaths I would be having a necropsy done.

My plans if I have Mareks in my flock vary based on location. I plan on moving soon. But loosely is to cull the entire flock ASAP and immediately go chicken free on that land for a minimum of 3-5 years. I may attempt to sterilize a number of eggs and ask someone else to try raising them for a while if they're willing with full disclosure if I need to save my lines for some reason.
Then I raise a different poultry in the meantime that can't contract chicken Mareks - perhaps ducks, turkeys, quail, gunieas, etc. My egg aren't all in one basket so losing my flock would be pretty awful but it won't entirely break my homestead. After that if I bring in unvacced chickens and they still contract the disease I have a few options; commit to going chicken free for a longer time period. Try to keep chickens on different land. Vaccinate my whole flock and/or start breeding for resistance and entirely close the flock. Which one of those paths I take is going to be so dependent on what situation I am in 5+ years from now that I can't say which one is going to be most appropriate for me.

That plan might not fit for everyone, especially if their chickens are pets. But it's a plan that fits for me.

 

[FortCluck]

I understand the disease in the same way that you do. When I was a new chicken keeper, I had read the arguments for and against vaccination, and also that it was uncommon in backyard flocks, so bought unvaccinated chicks from a breeder. Those chicks had Marek’s and spread it to the rest of our chickens. I very much wish now that I had only added vaccinated chicks. Unless you have the very hottest strain of Marek’s, vaccination decreases viral shedding.

For those who maintain unvaccinated birds so that they can act as sentinels, what plans do you have if you do get Marek’s in your flock, and do you have a necropsy at a diagnostic lab performed for each bird that dies and n order to monitor for disease?

I would get a necropsy on dead birds if they showed signs of the disease.

 

[FortCluck]

Given that none of my chickens are vaccinated at this point if just one chicken dies suddenly I don't necropsy. But I know my flock well enough to see when any symptoms develop. The last death we had due to any sort of illness (rather than deliberate culling or predators) after 2 weeks of age (Mareks doesn't express until 6 weeks) was an egg bound australorp over two years ago. Prior to that I lost a 2 year old cornish cross over night two years before. She was otherwise robust and healthy so we assume heart attack. One year before that one older bird developed a cough, was quarantined and didn't get better with medication, and was culled. If memory serves that's the entire extent of our non-predator, non-chick non cull deaths in our flock over 6 years or so.

Even the mildest strains of the virus would show a lot more death and illness than that and all my birds are about it hit 2 years now and very robust. The birds I had before them were hitting 4-5 years of age before a coon got to them. (These birds were in chick quarantine at that time.) I also examine the organs of my culls carefully including slicing into organs (they get chopped up for my dogs) and have never seen anything surprising beyond the occasional fatty liver.

As it stands I've never had a reason to have a necropsy preformed. One dead chicken in two years in a largely unvaccinated flock is hardly grounds for Mareks in a flock and none of my current birds are vaccinated. As said previously the "milder" strains are still around 50% lethal and it's not like I have just a few birds - I have a dozen breeders and a number of chicks each year. As such it's reasonable to assume my flock is Mareks free. (Or surprisingly resistant and I'm secretly sitting on a gold mine, but Mareks free is MUCH more likely.)

If I did ever see any symptoms of Mareks or more consistent deaths I would be having a necropsy done.

My plans if I have Mareks in my flock vary based on location. I plan on moving soon. But loosely is to cull the entire flock ASAP and immediately go chicken free on that land for a minimum of 3-5 years. I may attempt to sterilize a number of eggs and ask someone else to try raising them for a while if they're willing with full disclosure if I need to save my lines for some reason.
Then I raise a different poultry in the meantime that can't contract chicken Mareks - perhaps ducks, turkeys, quail, gunieas, etc. My egg aren't all in one basket so losing my flock would be pretty awful but it won't entirely break my homestead. After that if I bring in unvacced chickens and they still contract the disease I have a few options; commit to going chicken free for a longer time period. Try to keep chickens on different land. Vaccinate my whole flock and/or start breeding for resistance and entirely close the flock. Which one of those paths I take is going to be so dependent on what situation I am in 5+ years from now that I can't say which one is going to be most appropriate for me.

That plan might not fit for everyone, especially if their chickens are pets. But it's a plan that fits for me.

I would do the same thing

 

[Fluffyflufffluff]

Aren't you not supposed to mix vaccinated with non vaccinated?

I think I read that somewhere

I really don't get why you wanna mix Vaccinated to the NonVaccinated chicks. I mean, What do we need to see here? if the nonvaccinated chicks will die eventually?

 

[NatJ]

I really don't get why you wanna mix Vaccinated to the NonVaccinated chicks. I mean, What do we need to see here? if the nonvaccinated chicks will die eventually?

Most common reason for mixing: a person has some chickens, and wants to get more--but they either can't match the vaccination status, or they're asking if they even need to try to match.

Anytime the question is asked, someone will respond that they have a mix of both with no trouble, and someone else will tell their awful story of the vaccinated birds that had the disease and the unvaccinated ones died. And then everyone will talk about it all over again. (Like we've been doing for 30+ pages in this thread.)

 

[FortCluck]

Most common reason for mixing: a person has some chickens, and wants to get more--but they either can't match the vaccination status, or they're asking if they even need to try to match.

Anytime the question is asked, someone will respond that they have a mix of both with no trouble, and someone else will tell their awful story of the vaccinated birds that had the disease and the unvaccinated ones died. And then everyone will talk about it all over again. (Like we've been doing for 30+ pages in this thread.)

I have all unvaccinated. I hatch all my own chicks and the organic farm I get eggs from doesn't vaccinate either. I haven't had any issues, but I try to keep my flock as healthy as possible. There's a lot that a chicken can pick up from the ground that we can't avoid, but knowing how to react to it as fast as possible is always key in my opinion. Some people wait days until it spreads through their whole flock. If you have a sick bird, quarantine it instantly and don't wait. Have biosecurity so you're not interacting with the sick and healthy with the same shoes and clothes. Reaction and action are key in a lot of instances with livestock. You don't just sit and wait to see if it spreads.

 

[ColoradoPip]

Most common reason for mixing: a person has some chickens, and wants to get more--but they either can't match the vaccination status, or they're asking if they even need to try to match.

Anytime the question is asked, someone will respond that they have a mix of both with no trouble, and someone else will tell their awful story of the vaccinated birds that had the disease and the unvaccinated ones died. And then everyone will talk about it all over again. (Like we've been doing for 30+ pages in this thread.)

If this didn't happen would there be much activity in any online group or forum?

The funny thing is though, you're spot on.

I came here looking to find out if it matters because I've ordered chicks and wasn't sure. After reading this thread (and others) I realized the smartest thing was to try and figure out my current situation. I purchased them at a larger/franchise feed store and was able to look it up and find they do not vaccinate. This information, along with all of the information here, helped me make a more educated decision for my flock.


I plan to follow pretty much what ChocolateMouse has stated and deal with any issues as they come up.

 

[FortCluck]

If this didn't happen would there be much activity in any online group or forum?

The funny thing is though, you're spot on.

I came here looking to find out if it matters because I've ordered chicks and wasn't sure. After reading this thread (and others) I realized the smartest thing was to try and figure out my current situation. I purchased them at a larger/franchise feed store and was able to look it up and find they do not vaccinate. This information, along with all of the information here, helped me make a more educated decision for my flock.


I plan to follow pretty much what ChocolateMouse has stated and deal with any issues as they come up.

That's what I do. So far in 5 years I have had zero issues. Just keep your chickens clean and healthy. It won't prevent Marek's but other things may. Don't put wild bird feed out in your yard, have netting or a roof on your run, don't wear the same clothes or shoes onto your yard after going into a place with chicks or chickens, quarantine all newcomers, and I could go on all day... Good luck with your new additions!