Ventilation is the key not humidity!

[BeardedChick]

Quote:
I can already keep the vents pretty open on mine.

So as soon as you hit 21% oxygen saturation, you won't get any more than that no matter how much air turbulence you create.

For example, if you are in a hurricane, you don't get a higher % of oxygen. You just get more air flowing by you.

IF the problem was that the air inside the 'bator was getting below 21% oxygen saturation, then I think moving fresh air in would help. But I do not think that is the problem at least for my setup.

I think the bigger problem at alitude is that all of our air molecules are further apart, so the volume of oxygen inside the incubator will always be less than it is at sea level. At our altitude - 15-20% less by volume. If your 'bator could be pressurized, it would force the molecules closer together and then you could fit more O2 molecules in there.

Just my personal opinion, I would love to see how your experiment comes out. If it worked it would be great.

But consider that if you have your water tray under the light bulb so the water is already warm, and you use the fan to disturb the water and humidify the air - you are essentially doing the same thing. Ok, not prehumidified, but the air is well humidified inside of the 'bator.

I just don't see it as being any different when I can get my humidity up to 70% by just using a fan near my water pan.

 

[danielnv]

Quote:
You may not be familiar where you live, but here in the desert I use a swamp cooler to cool my house in the summer. It does pretty much what you all are talking about here: pumps air into the house through moist pads so that the air is cooled via evaporative cooling. OK, the cooling part is different, but it adds humidity to the air, and the only way it works is when the window in each room is slightly open, say an inch or two. If the window in a room is closed, that room will be extra hot because no air is moving through.

In this case if we simply add an air tube attached to a fish pump into the incubator, we will be adding air and increasing pressure somewhat depending on the size of pump vs overall size of holes in the incubator. Regardless of the measurable effect on pressure, there will definitely be improved ventilation.

This thread is awesome and making me think. This has to be like the biggest variable after temperature. Instead of focusing on just temperature and humidity, we have to get temperature and ventilation perfect first, and then address humidity. Very interesting! BTW, I'm on my 3rd set of eggs right now, so I will be trying out some form of this theory when I get home--even if it's just to leave the vent over the forced air fan open.

I think what I'm reading is that ventilation is most important the final 3 days, and by closing vents to achieve higher humidity we suffocate our poor babies and/or drown them?

 

[BeardedChick]

Quote:
You may not be familiar where you live, but here in the desert I use a swamp cooler to cool my house in the summer. It does pretty much what you all are talking about here: pumps air into the house through moist pads so that the air is cooled via evaporative cooling. OK, the cooling part is different, but it adds humidity to the air, and the only way it works is when the window in each room is slightly open, say an inch or two. If the window in a room is closed, that room will be extra hot because no air is moving through.

In this case if we simply add an air tube attached to a fish pump into the incubator, we will be adding air and increasing pressure somewhat depending on the size of pump vs overall size of holes in the incubator. Regardless of the measurable effect on pressure, there will definitely be improved ventilation.

This thread is awesome and making me think. This has to be like the biggest variable after temperature. Instead of focusing on just temperature and humidity, we have to get temperature and ventilation perfect first, and then address humidity. Very interesting! BTW, I'm on my 3rd set of eggs right now, so I will be trying out some form of this theory when I get home--even if it's just to leave the vent over the forced air fan open.

I think what I'm reading is that ventilation is most important the final 3 days, and by closing vents to achieve higher humidity we suffocate our poor babies and/or drown them?

Yeah, I'm in CO. We use a swamp cooler, too.

I don't believe for a second that a swamp cooler creates enough pressure to replicate lower altitude conditions. But I am open to being proven wrong.

I cannot figure out why would people who have trouble breathing move to lower altitude if they could just put a fan in their house to change the air pressure that much? It would be brilliant if it worked that way. Instead the option they have at high altitude is to supplement oxygen and increase it to more than 21%.

Anyway, see my previous post. I don't think the problem *I* am having relates to moving enough air. I don't think my 'bator is desaturating with O2.

Everyone needs to realize the difference between an environment that is oxygen starved because O2 sat has dropped to below 21% versus one that is O2 starved by volume because of the effects of altitude.

Totally different things going on there.

(Ok, I am not sure it's 21%, but I was up until 4:30a working so if that's a brain-fade on the percentage, forgive me!)

 

[AHappychick]

Quote:
I was actually going to ask something about this. 13 years ago we started hatching duck eggs; I was 8 years old at the time. After getting back into incubating again I suddenly remembered that my mother used to poke a hole at the top of the eggs with a very small needle at some point in the incubation process. I'm guessing it was day 18; obviously my 8-year-old brain didn't think to keep track of that information.

Anyway, I haven't read a lot here about poking a hole over the air sac, so I was wondering if that was a common pratice, or if it's only done if it is believed the chicks will need more air when they begin to pip.

Thought it was a new idea.... Guess not lol.

thats very interesting does anyone else poke holes in theirs? what area did you live in? I would love to hear more about that

 

[BeardedChick]

I'm sure everyone gets what I'm saying, but here's a quick picture just because...

Left paper is low altitude - higher atmospheric pressure. There are 20% blue marbles (representing oxygen molecules).

At altitude, the same size box would hold fewer molecules. So on the right is high altitude - lower atmospheric pressure. Still 20% air molecules, but there are fewer molecules.

So now if those molecules were being moved around by a fan, there would still be the same number of them in the box.

Simply moving the air more doesn't help *IF* you already have adequate ventilation. It won't make more oxygen available.

 

[SpunkyChicken]

Quote:
Thought it was a new idea.... Guess not lol.

thats very interesting does anyone else poke holes in theirs? what area did you live in? I would love to hear more about that

I lived in South-Eastern New Hampshire at the time, so no crazy elevations or anything. My first batch of eggs since then will actually be hatching just 2 hours west from there, but since they are chickens rather than ducks the humidity is a little different (we didn't even use a hygrometer at the time; it's a wonder we hatched so many eggs!)

 

[BeardedChick]

Ok, one more pic - this one showing what happens when we increase humidity 50% in the box.

The clear marbles are humidity (water). They will displace air in both boxes, but the percentage of oxygen stays the same.

So now both boxes have about 20% oxygen, but by volume that is half as much air (say if you went from 0% humidity to 50%).

On the high altitude model, it actually knocks out the blue oxygen molecule.

With humidity, more is not necessarily better because you *are* displacing fresh air and oxygen. It needs to be the right amount, but especially at altitude too much may be lethal.

***I wonder if the reason Buster and Bammony have had luck hatching at 70% humidity all the way through incubation is because the embryos do better if the O2 saturation in the incubator stays at a consistent level rather than dropping during the last 18 days. ***

This is an interesting idea to me - incubating at say 70% and then lowering humidity to 65% for hatch. It might be worth a try at higher altitudes.

 

[danielnv]

Quote:
I don't know to what extent a swamp cooler gets you to lower altitude conditions, but even if it did I don't know of any way to force enough air inside in the wintertime while keeping the house warm, so people would still need to move or take oxygen if they have medical issues.

I'm still trying to get my head around this ventilation issue, and how it affects hatchability. It would seem that you would need to take much more drastic measure than those of us at lower altitude to accomplish the same goals. For instance a larger air pump and less air holes exhausting the air should at some point raise the pressure in your incubator, but to what extent and if that would help your hatch...

I'm going to read back over this thread again.

 

[CARS]

I have been going through complete humidity hell
https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=133431

I have tried everything. Air pumps, misters, cake pans...

this thing doesn't take moisture. I should have just bought an incubator and set it inside the wood case.

Great discussion! It's feels good to be a part of a forum that doesn't bash "outside thinking".

 

[DuckyBoys]

I live at 6500 feet and I keep my humidity for waterfowl at 65% and then raise it to 70-75%. Works for me. For chicks I kept it at like 55% and then raised it to 65%.

For ventilation I put a large book under each incubator so that air can circulate around the bottom and then I just remove one red plug during hatch.

Not only is most of Colorado in high altitude, but we have very little humidity. I think people really need to take their individual climates into consideration when they hatch.