Wanted to post my Project breed!

[RaresightFarms]

Hi all, I wanted to post my project breed and see what everyone thought. I am using 4+ breeds to get all the traits I want, together in one bird. I've nicknamed it Empress, because I am going for a regal, flowing look.

My goal is a

non-bantam large-crested silkied fibro NN lightly-feather-legged semi-low-long-tailed blue-egg layer. Yes, I know, quite a mouthful! I am using Showgirls/Silkies, Ameraucanas, Ayam Cemanis, and ​

Sumatra chickens as the base, though I might end up adding some Phoenix if I feel the tails aren't to the length I want (once silkied).

Here's a concept sketch I did for an Empress roo -



Some traits I am leaving until later to decide, such as comb type (though I prefer walnut), bearded vs non, and toe number. Once I get the main things I want locked in and breeding true, I will visit the others. As for color, I expect at least White and BBS, but if a really interesting color produces itself after the crossing, I may keep it.

Second gen cross chicks are hatching in a couple weeks! This spring will really kick-start the project, as I am building new coops and adding more of the base breeds to my flock. I am also looking for any hatching eggs and cross chicks that other breeders have, between the 4-5 base breeds listed above. (So if you have a NN sumatra, or a blue-layer silkie, let me know!)

A colored version of the sketch, showing fibro (as a Blue) -
(No, I am not terribly good at photoshop coloring, lol!)

Let me know what you think!

edited by staff

 

[chooks4life]

Will be interesting to see how this goes. Looking forward to the results. Best wishes.

 

[PimentoPlymouth]

Please keep us updated, especially with chick pics once you start getting some. Always think this is one of the coolest things about cross breeding because you never what genes will be dominant.

 

[tadkerson]

Hi all, I wanted to post my project breed and see what everyone thought. I am using 4+ breeds to get all the traits I want, together in one bird. I've nicknamed it Empress, because I am going for a regal, flowing look.

My goal is a

non-bantam large-crested silkied fibro NN lightly-feather-legged semi-low-long-tailed blue-egg layer. Yes, I know, quite a mouthful! I am using Showgirls/Silkies, Ameraucanas, Ayam Cemanis, and ​

Sumatra chickens as the base, though I might end up adding some Phoenix if I feel the tails aren't to the length I want (once silkied).

Here's a concept sketch I did for an Empress roo -



Some traits I am leaving until later to decide, such as comb type (though I prefer walnut), bearded vs non, and toe number. Once I get the main things I want locked in and breeding true, I will visit the others. As for color, I expect at least White and BBS, but if a really interesting color produces itself after the crossing, I may keep it.

Second gen cross chicks are hatching in a couple weeks! This spring will really kick-start the project, as I am building new coops and adding more of the base breeds to my flock. I am also looking for any hatching eggs and cross chicks that other breeders have, between the 4-5 base breeds listed above. (So if you have a NN sumatra, or a blue-layer silkie, let me know!)

A colored version of the sketch, showing fibro (as a Blue) -
(No, I am not terribly good at photoshop coloring, lol!)

Let me know what you think!

Genetics 101


If you want a blue egg layer you will have to go with a pea or walnut comb. Walnut is a pea/rose comb combination. Trust me it will make your life a lot easier of you make the correct decision about comb type. The blue egg locus is about 3 centi-Morgans away from the pea comb locus so when the bird inherits the blue egg allele it also inherits the pea comb. The only way that the two can be separated is during prophase 1 of meiosis, a cross over occurs but this can only occur in a heterozygous bird- so that means only a hybrid bird can contribute the new gene combination to its offspring. The new gene combination would produce a single comb blue egg laying hen.

Do not be surprised if you produce some greenish blue egg layers from your crosses.

If you want a white bird it appears that recessive white is your only option. If color was the only issue it would be easy to produce a recessive white bird but since you are dealing with multiple traits it will be sometimes impossible to know if a bird is a recessive white carrier. The traits you want in a bird may not segregate with the recessive white ( all be found together in an offspring) For example, you may produce a male and female that both contain many of the traits in your empress but one bird does not carry the recessive white gene so it is impossible to produce a white bird from the cross. When birds are crossed that are hybrid for traits, the cross will produce different gene combinations. A simple one gene hybrid cross produces 3 different gene combinations in the offspring. A simple dihybrid cross produces 12 different gene combinations- in order to get the correct gene combinations one would have to limit the number of traits one is wishing to produce in combination in the offspring.

Black would be the easiest phenotype to reproduce. If you go with black plumage, it is best to go for black or slate legs. You have to choose traits that are genetically possible. It is genetically more difficult to produce a black bird with white shanks- it can be done but the bird will have to carry a specific set of genes which would be difficult to put together. The genes that produce white shanks would also effect the black meat trait.

Fibromelanotic chickens have a combination of genes that produce the black meat trait. A gene called dermal melanin is needed to produce the trait. It is a sex linked recessive gene. And of course the autosomal fibromelanotic gene is also needed to produce the black meat trait.

Always cross a fibromelanotic male with a white or gray skin female. The male will give the dermal melanin gene to every one of the offspring,

Also naked neck, the blue egg shell, pea comb and silkie genes are all linked on the same chromosome. Silkie is a recessive trait.

I would suggest you learn as much as you can about the genetics behind the traits you wish to breed into your empress. Then make a breeding plan or you may be treading water and wind up frustrated.

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.1002412

http://www.poultryscience.org/docs/pba/1952-2003/1994/1994 Smyth.pdf

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17878441

http://www.virology.ws/2013/09/11/a-retrovirus-makes-chicken-eggshells-blue/

http://sydney.edu.au/vetscience/apss/documents/1999/APSS1999-terry-pp69-72.pdf




Tim

 

[RaresightFarms]

Genetics 101


If you want a blue egg layer you will have to go with a pea or walnut comb. Walnut is a pea/rose comb combination. Trust me it will make your life a lot easier of you make the correct decision about comb type. The blue egg locus is about 3 centi-Morgans away from the pea comb locus so when the bird inherits the blue egg allele it also inherits the pea comb. The only way that the two can be separated is during prophase 1 of meiosis, a cross over occurs but this can only occur in a heterozygous bird- so that means only a hybrid bird can contribute the new gene combination to its offspring. The new gene combination would produce a single comb blue egg laying hen.

Do not be surprised if you produce some greenish blue egg layers from your crosses.

If you want a white bird it appears that recessive white is your only option. If color was the only issue it would be easy to produce a recessive white bird but since you are dealing with multiple traits it will be sometimes impossible to know if a bird is a recessive white carrier. The traits you want in a bird may not segregate with the recessive white ( all be found together in an offspring) For example, you may produce a male and female that both contain many of the traits in your empress but one bird does not carry the recessive white gene so it is impossible to produce a white bird from the cross. When birds are crossed that are hybrid for traits, the cross will produce different gene combinations. A simple one gene hybrid cross produces 3 different gene combinations in the offspring. A simple dihybrid cross produces 12 different gene combinations- in order to get the correct gene combinations one would have to limit the number of traits one is wishing to produce in combination in the offspring.

Black would be the easiest phenotype to reproduce. If you go with black plumage, it is best to go for black or slate legs. You have to choose traits that are genetically possible. It is genetically more difficult to produce a black bird with white shanks- it can be done but the bird will have to carry a specific set of genes which would be difficult to put together. The genes that produce white shanks would also effect the black meat trait.

Fibromelanotic chickens have a combination of genes that produce the black meat trait. A gene called dermal melanin is needed to produce the trait. It is a sex linked recessive gene. And of course the autosomal fibromelanotic gene is also needed to produce the black meat trait.

Always cross a fibromelanotic male with a white or gray skin female. The male will give the dermal melanin gene to every one of the offspring,

Also naked neck, the blue egg shell, pea comb and silkie genes are all linked on the same chromosome. Silkie is a recessive trait.

I would suggest you learn as much as you can about the genetics behind the traits you wish to breed into your empress. Then make a breeding plan or you may be treading water and wind up frustrated.

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.1002412

http://www.poultryscience.org/docs/pba/1952-2003/1994/1994 Smyth.pdf

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17878441

http://www.virology.ws/2013/09/11/a-retrovirus-makes-chicken-eggshells-blue/

http://sydney.edu.au/vetscience/apss/documents/1999/APSS1999-terry-pp69-72.pdf




Tim

Hi Tim - yes, I've done a LOT of research! The only thing I didn't know was the link between comb and blue egg color. I will keep that in mind! Since I wasn't going to bother breeding for comb type until after all the other traits I wanted were locked in, I would have ended up with a pea or walnut comb anyway.

 

[gloryblue]

Hi all, I wanted to post my project breed and see what everyone thought. I am using 4+ breeds to get all the traits I want, together in one bird. I've nicknamed it Empress, because I am going for a regal, flowing look. My goal is a

non-bantam large-crested silkied fibro NN lightly-feather-legged semi-low-long-tailed blue-egg layer. Yes, I know, quite a mouthful! I am using Showgirls/Silkies, Ameraucanas, Ayam Cemanis, and​

Sumatra chickens as the base, though I might end up adding some Phoenix if I feel the tails aren't to the length I want (once silkied). Here's a concept sketch I did for an Empress roo - Some traits I am leaving until later to decide, such as comb type (though I prefer walnut), bearded vs non, and toe number. Once I get the main things I want locked in and breeding true, I will visit the others. As for color, I expect at least White and BBS, but if a really interesting color produces itself after the crossing, I may keep it. Second gen cross chicks are hatching in a couple weeks! This spring will really kick-start the project, as I am building new coops and adding more of the base breeds to my flock. I am also looking for any hatching eggs and cross chicks that other breeders have, between the 4-5 base breeds listed above. (So if you have a NN sumatra, or a blue-layer silkie, let me know!) A colored version of the sketch, showing fibro (as a Blue) - (No, I am not terribly good at photoshop coloring, lol!) Let me know what you think!

are you going for a "naked neck" in your "Empress"?

 

[gloryblue]

I sure would like to follow your progress on this "Empress" you're working on. May be interested in some chicks down the road. I'm researching right now to go back to the beginning on S.American breeds that the Araucana came from but with strong patterns and blue or lilac/pink eggs. Good luck and best wishes for your success.

 

[RaresightFarms]

are you going for a "naked neck" in your "Empress"?

Yes, I am! Through the Showgirl, since they have the silkie feathering and the fibro color.


Quote:
Thanks! I'll be posting progress here and on my facebook (just search Raresight Farms). Right now it's slow going because I don't have all the breeds I need, but I am fixing that this spring. I have a Cemani pair coming in (going to stud the roo out over Ameraucanas and Sumatras), and I am waiting for my Showgirl roo to get bigger (also over the Ameraucanas and Sumatras). I'll be having winter cross chicks with any luck (here in San Diego it's never too cold, haha), and a ton of combinations in spring! Then when I have those cross chicks grown up a tad, I'll pick the best two roosters and continue from there.

I have pullets from last years Silkie x EE (I didn't have Ameraucanas then) cross, but sadly so far they all have pink eggs, so they won't be included in the project. I'm crossing my fingers that the last one that hasn't laid will give me a blue or blue-green, so I can start with second-gen Silkie x Silkie/EE, and hopefully make some blue- or blue-green layer silkies feathered birds this spring!

I also wanted to say that I will likely be making this breed in both silkied and non-silkied until I am 100% satisfied with the other traits.

 

[tadkerson]

Always cross a fibromelanotic male with a white or gray skin female. The male will give the dermal melanin gene to every one of the offspring,

What I meant by this is if you have to cross a white or gray skinned female use a black meat bird as the male. It would be great to cross black meat with black meat but in case you do not have a female black meat make sure the male side is black meat. Dermal melanin is sex linked a black meat bird insures that every offspring will have one copy of the dermal melanin gene.

Tim

 

[RaresightFarms]

Always cross a fibromelanotic male with a white or gray skin female. The male will give the dermal melanin gene to every one of the offspring,

What I meant by this is if you have to cross a white or gray skinned female use a black meat bird as the male. It would be great to cross black meat with black meat but in case you do not have a female black meat make sure the male side is black meat. Dermal melanin is sex linked a black meat bird insures that every offspring will have one copy of the dermal melanin gene.

Tim

Yes I understood. That's why I am only using a Cemani and a Showgirl as my roos, since both are fibro, and will then only be keeping the darkest of their crossbreed sons to continue the line.