Welsummer Question

[Tailfeathers]

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That is an excellent challenge that I would echo. First of all, anyone who has made even the slightest effort at breeding as a hobby knows that they better never plan to make a living at it. Most of us rarely break even and none of us are making a living at it. To equate the definition of a "breeder" that I used above to the definition of a "hatchery" is just plain ludicrous. A breeder most likely will be firmly entrenched in the hobby. They will be a member of the Club and in ongoing discussions about how to better the particular breed(s) they have gained a fancy for. They are in the hobby (vice a business) because of their love for the breed. They are in the hobby for the bird - not for the money.

And let me just add one disclaimer, I am not referring to a breeder as a backyard salesman who throws a bunch of birds together in a pen to sell a few birds in order to help with the feed bill. That is no more a "breeder" than a puppy mill is a breeder.

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Again, a challenge I would echo! In fact, I'd even encourage anyone who wants to take the challenge to contact my customers. Ask them if they have ever gotten a bird from me that wasn't EXACTLY what I said it should be.

Anyone who has gotten hatching eggs from me knows that each egg is individually identified by the corresponding breeding pen from which it came. I also send an email with the birds of that pen identified so that each person knows exactly who the mother and father of their chicks is. I also then follow up with them through the entire hatching process and ask for continual feedback. Any faults or DQ's that pop up can then be readily identified and then documents. And we can continue to stay in touch through out own breeding programs to provide feedback on the results of our efforts in an attempt to provide for continual help to one another and the improvement of the breed.

Now Jim, can you tell me any hatchery that comes even close to doing that???????

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Would you kindly please provide your source for that "unfortunate fact"? I have seen no documented evidence of any such thing.

God Bless,

 

[Dirt Road]

First let me explain that I do not show chickens. I have never shown chickens, but over the years I have counted among my friends quite a few people who do or did show regularly. My personal experience with hatcheries, other than as an occasional customer was mostly when I was younger. My dad and uncle produced eggs for the local hatchery when I was in grade school. The variety they kept, was the Ancona. About 200 laying hens, and sufficient roosters to do the job. The hatchery provided the day old chicks, which were then grown out and brought into production. The hatchery at several points in the process would send out their expert to cull the flock. So yes they did cull. Understand that the expert was working 250 or more birds so probably wasn't able to linger over each one as would a hobbyist with 20 or 30 chicks to deal with. However, he was a professional, and would brook no nonsense about this or that one having a special personality. Throughout my high school years, I worked in the chicken ranches after school for another hatchery. Again, culling was a routine process for the breeding flocks. I can not say for certain how the industry has changed over the years, but I am willing to bet that anyone in the business of raising any kind of livestock who does not regularly and effectively practice selective breeding and culling will be gone in fairly short order. Anyone who claims that hatcheries never cull their birds, simply does not know what they are talking about, and have accepted the rhetoric offered by a few who are primarily promoting their own interests. There is no question that different hatcheries will have better or poorer examples of a given breed compared to another hatchery.

Anyone who has gotten hatching eggs from me knows that each egg is individually identified by the corresponding breeding pen from which it came. I also send an email with the birds of that pen identified so that each person knows exactly who the mother and father of their chicks is. I also then follow up with them through the entire hatching process and ask for continual feedback. Any faults or DQ's that pop up can then be readily identified and then documents. And we can continue to stay in touch through out own breeding programs to provide feedback on the results of our efforts in an attempt to provide for continual help to one another and the improvement of the breed.

Tailfeathers; if you do all of those things, and I have no reason to doubt your word, then you must be building an amazing reputation within the hobby, and not just on the BYC forums. I have never bought eggs from you, but I have bought a lot of eggs from others over the years and can honestly say I've never before even heard of someone going to such lengths. I do not need to ask if you have a large operation, as such attention to detail would preclude having time to deal with a great many birds. We do agree completely on the "backyard salesman", not really being a breeder in the sense of the word as you use it. However I assure you that they do in fact call themselves breeders, and virtually all of them will share your pulpit when you are condemning the hatcheries. Surprisingly if one queries them a bit it can often be discovered that their stock came from a hatchery. I suspect a better term than "breeders", would be "hobbyists", since by literal definition anyone who produces any eggs for hatching is in fact a breeder.

Would you kindly please provide your source for that "unfortunate fact"? I have seen no documented evidence of any such thing.

My source for that statement is from my own observations and opinions, based on dealing with an awful lot of different people over 60+ years. You know as well as I that there is no way to "document evidence" of such a fact. I repeat; the SoP states, "judges and breeders work to a standard that values indication of productiveness so that laying merits can be combined with beauty". Birds that are late to begin laying, or those which lay intermittently, would hardly be considered "productive". Yet production will be one of the last concerns of a "breeder", probably because most breeders have more eggs than they could ever eat anyway.
Lastly I would like to mention that Welsumers according to the SoP were descended from Partridge Cochin,Partridge Wyandotte, and Partridge Leghorns as well as Barnvelders, and Rhode Island Reds among others. No wonder one occasionally turns up built like a leghorn. As long as the bird is culled, and not represented as breeding stock I doubt much harm is done. Probably ought to worry more if one pops out built like a cornish!

Jim​

 

[McSpin]

Dirt Road, I agree with a lot of what you say. I have a lot of experience breeding animals (as a living for more than 25 years). I'm relatively new to chickens, but I've found these tendencies to hold true, no matter the animal.

In general, the worst breeders are the small "backyard breeders" - though there are exceptions. The main problem being the very small gene pool they're dealing with. Most people are not willing to cull as they should. They find it distasteful and avoid it. With a limited gene pool and less-than-ideal breeding practices, their birds go downhill the fastest. The quality will vary with how good the stock is they start with and how often they "reload" with new stock.

The huge hatcheries certainly cull better than the average backyard breeder and they have a much larger gene pool to work with. However, their motivation is not winning ribbons, it's production, so their birds tend to end up less showable and more productive.

The ideal breeder is probably somewhere in-between. Large enough to have the gene pool needed and small enough to spend more time on individual birds. Still, it depends on their goals as to whether a particular individual will want their birds. If someone is looking for healthy, productive, long-lived birds, then sometimes their worst choice could be someone winning shows, where they don't judge for those characteristics. I know that the worst birds I've owned were a "show line". Lot's of culls and sub-standard production with a substandard egg size. The fact that a few could be put into a show and do well, meant nothing to me. I culled them all, while I know many who seem thrilled with the line.

It seems rather pointless to define who's a "breeder" and who's in it for the money. It seems to me, there's at least little bit of both in everyone. I've yet to see anyone giving all their chicks or eggs away for free. In fact, the hobby breeders are the ones charging the highest prices - almost without exception.

 

[bigredfeather]

Thanks everybody for the great info. The hens must have heard about all this rooster talk, because look what I got the last two days:

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I checked my hatch schedule and determined the hens are 19 weeks. The other egg is from my current layers.

Thanks again everybody

 

[EweSheep]

All this talk would have made them start laying! next time they pull off this kind of thing, threaten them with the nice BBQ section!

 

[Tailfeathers]

Jim, I would agree with most of what you said there.

However, I would take exception with just two things. First, I've never "condemned" hatcheries. If you do a search on BYC with me as the Author, you can now look through every single one of my posts and you'll never find me condemning a hatchery.

What I have said is a simple fact. Hatcheries buy eggs from egg producers. They then hatch those eggs and send the day-old chicks to customers. Therefore, because they are not personally involved in the breeding process they simply cannot definitively know with certainty as to what they are selling. This is why every now and then you see a thread show up about some "unknown" bird popping up in an order of this or that.

As an example of that, I'll mention a specific instance that happened this year Evidently we had quite a windstorm one night several months ago because I woke up to find my rooster pen on its side 30 yards from where it was and all the roosters that were in it running around with the hens. Well, every hen that wasn't already in a breeding pen had to be taken out of production for a month just to make sure I didn't have any surprises.

Now tell me, how many hatcheries (or egg producers for hatcheries) would have done that?

I have always said that hatcheries have their place - but it is not for the betterment of a particular breed. You simply cannot have both a focus on money and on quality.

No, I do not have a large operation. I keep it small specifically so I can manage my breeds. Frankly, I have nothing but the utmost respect for some of the breeders I have met who bring 100 birds to a show. I don't know how they do it. Just washing and preparing that many birds for a show would exhaust me to the point I couldn't drive to the show in the first place!

I do not breed my birds to build a reputation. God has given me the wonderful blessing of being able to care for some of his great creations. Any ribbon that sits on the front of a cage with one of my birds in it, simply reflects the glory of God Who is the real workman behind the process.

I would also reiterate that the efforts I go to with numbering the eggs and such are not only to primarily help my customers with their own potential breeding plans should they decide to do so but also with my own. It simply takes much of the guess work out of the equation.

Lastly, with regard to production as a consideration in breeding. It certainly is with me. I won't say it is my primary consideration because it is not. My breeding program focuses primarily on APA SOPs, and egg color and size, with production being a secondary consideration as well.

For example, I have two #10 Blue Wheaten Ameraucanas this year that produce my largest eggs and more often than any of my others. However, they are also my lightest colored eggs. I initially intended to put both Wheaten and both Blue Wheaten roosters over them but then one of my Wheaten roosters developed white in his earlobes so I pulled him from the breeding plan. I am also putting all three roosters over my #15 Blue Wheaten hen that produces my best colored egg albeit a little on the smaller side and only gives me one egg about every 6-8 days.

By doing so, I should be able to find which roosters will dark the egg color, which ones will lighten egg color, and which, if any, will help in the size and production areas.

So, as you can see, egg size and production is a consideration. It's just not the primary consideration. If egg production were the primary consideration for all breeds, we would all be owning Leghorns and the others would simply die out.

Mcspin, I personally have never met a person who shows their birds that has their "motivation in winning ribbons".

This has been an interesting discussion and I'll just end with where I started. When looking at the pros and cons of hatchery vs. breeder, one must first define what each means. Then one must look at the goals associated with each.

Perhaps I should just say that the "goals" associated with the entity behind the eggs or birds should be associated with the end result.

God Bless,

 

[McSpin]

Mcspin, I personally have never met a person who shows their birds that has their "motivation in winning ribbons".

I find that amazing. I've been to hundreds of shows for various animals, and my impression is that most are completely caught up in winning. Of course, none specifically ever told me that. It's just the impression I get when I see their reaction to a judge's decision. They simply can't hide the emotion or the desire to win.

If they didn't want to win, why go to the show? Do they need a judge to tell them what a good bird is and what a bad bird is? The real experienced show people know what they like and don't need someone else to tell them. The beginners could simply ask an experienced person to evaluate their birds without the hassle of the washing, drying, etc. Yes, they want to win.​

 

[TimG]

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I expect all, or at least a large majority, would do the same or similar. Maybe the eggs would still be collected and the chicks sold as part of a mixed basket type promotion, but I am trusting enough to think that they would not be sold as "purebreds".

You simply cannot have both a focus on money and on quality.

I do not believe that quality and profits are mutually exclusive. In fact, I think they often go hand in hand.​

 

[Tailfeathers]

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There is a BIG difference between enjoying and appreciating the recognition that comes from perhaps years of hard work, time, and expense to see a bird finally be recognized as a winner and "being motivated to win ribbons."

Not only that but as I said before most folks I know are just plain happy for the bird. Your "impression" is just that. Personally, I have NEVER seen a single, solitary person ever win an award and go running around saying, "Looky, looky at me! See what I did!!"

I think this thread has pretty much run its course. My "impression" now is that there is some jealousy and stereotypical biases coming out that has pretty much derailed the initial questions. I'll bow out now.

God Bless,

 

[EweSheep]

Sometimes reputation goes hand in hand as well. If you have a good reputation, you can go a bit further.

There are private, personal hatcheries out there. One example would be Chick Hatchery, owned by one of the premier Amercuana breeders here in the USA raising some fine Amercuanas and other rare breeds. Sure he can sell them to anyone that can send in their orders and he will make good on it. If it is a breed that is needing work or "in the works", then it would be up to the buyer to make that informed decision to continue with the line.

All of you have excellent points and it is a very informative information we can all learn from and apply it to our goals and needs for the Welsummer breeds. I love the practice that Tailfeathers have and with the small amount of numbers of per breed, it CAN be done and it takes hard work and dedication to MAKE it work.

We all have good and bad in hatchery vs breeder Welsummers. It is up to anyone to make the choices they want to go for, and do their researches on Welsummers and look at the pros and cons of each sides and go from there.

McSpin, I have given away my Welsummer Bantam roos for FREE to 4H/FFA kids or pet homes only. Simply because I live in the city, and the market for roos to sell is very, very poor and it would be for me, a happy solution for both for me and the kids. Also it depends on my crazy PO to ship birds and if I can not ship, then they will not sell either. Everyone wants hens or pullets but not willing to pay the high price for them what I am selling them for. Sometimes you have to look at the market around your area or your state and take it from there. Some places sell better than others while others are in deep doo doo to sell birds at a given time.