What are differences between buying from a hatchery versus a breeder?

[speckledhen]

Not all hatchery stock is narrow-bodied. See this hen? Her parents were McMurray hatchery stock. If you get a couple generations removed from the hatchery, you can up the size of the birds, if the breed calls for it. No, she isn't "show barred", but she isn't bad, either. You have to choose to keep the ones that most resemble the SOP and then you can "breed up" to a better looking bird.

On the other hand, you can get a bird who is very small, like my Lexie, who came from Ideal. She's maybe 5 lbs, just barely. Huge difference in the barring, too.

 

[phasian]

Thank you for starting such an informative thread. Omniskies thanks for your erudite input. (I too study the ALBC religiously).

On the question of reputable breeders, I fall into the category of raising for vigor. As my client base is predominantly urban, backyard flock keepers, I also raise for temperament. While I desire a bird that is as close to APA breed type as possible, I do think that trends develop over long periods of time that don't serve the birds- like crests that cover the entire face of a Silkie. (It looks appealing, but I think Silkies fare better when they can see their surroundings.) Much like Bulldogs with respiratory problems, I think we as humans sometimes get carried away with breeding for traits that are impractical, completely out of whack with evolution, and sometimes just plain cruel.

While I prefer to not have visitors to my farm for biosecurity reasons, (not to mention that it's my sanctuary away from humans) I do provide a 6 month health guarantee for any birds folks purchase from me and continue to consult with my clients through the life of their birds if they need any support. I do not make money from this enterprise (except from public speaking), but do reap an enormous amount of gratification and invaluable knowledge.

I don't keep separate pens for all my breeds year round, but do keep breeding pens to isolate breeds when I wish to work on their reproduction.

 

[HaikuHeritageFarm]

I'm still sticking with mostly hatchery birds because I am still "sampling".

Hatchery birds won't necessarily be the best example of the breed, and in some cases barely representative of good breeder quality birds, but it can give the average person a fair idea of what a breed is like.

I also like that I can A) Get day-old chicks, B) for generally less than $3 a chick and C) I can get a number of different breeds at once, which is often not possible with the vast majority of breeders. It's a low risk way to test the waters, I guess.

After "sampling" some breeds, I get a better idea of what I like and don't like and can pursue more information and sources for better quality birds for the ones I like.

 

[speckledhen]

Haiku made a good point Breeds that I thought I'd love, I didn't. Breeds that, at first, I did not want, I adore now. Hatchery birds let you try many breeds for a low investment.

That said, sometimes the hatchery stock is in no way a good representation of the breed, not even to try out. For example, Delawares from hatcheries are sometimes aggressive and/or flighty birds, some were outcrossed to Columbian Rocks at some point, etc, and you can't judge one by hatchery stock at all.

 

[HaikuHeritageFarm]

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You're absolutely right, but can it be said conclusively that all breeder birds are one way or the other? There are vast differences between some breeder lines within the same breed, just as there are between breeder birds and hatchery birds. When it comes down to it, you really just have to do some serious homework on the specific birds you're considering.

 

[Stevenson]

Illia directed me to this forum after I asked the same question! Very good posts. I already ordered my chicks and feel a small amount of disappointment, but I think that they should work fine for getting me started in the hobby.

It's funny, I did the same thing when I started growing giant pumpkins. I bought seeds from an online store and had very little success for the first couple of years. When I did my research and made contacts with giant pumpkin growers I got much better seeds and was able to have much more success! (Note: The pumpkin growing hobby has stepped aside for me to allow more time to grow things I can actually eat!)

 

[popcornpuppy]

I started off with hatchery birds and sold off all of them to foccus on breeer stock. I wanted my Rhode Island Reds to be Rhode Island Reds and not just in name, but according to the definition in The Standard of Perfection. The Standard exists to tell us what each recognized breed is supossed to be like.
If a hatchery sells a chicken as a Rhode Island Red, a red bird bird with some Rhode Island Red blood in it does that make it a Rhode Island Red?

What does the standard of perfection say about what a RIR should be? It defines the color, over all size and height, shape of the body, way the tail should be carried, way the wings should be carried, where any black or green markings should be, how much it should weigh, what color the legs should be and on and on. The standard also describes the birds purpose. Dual purpose (for both meat and eggs,) and "is capable of excellent egg production." Breeders will try to breed not just for the correct look, but for the correct purpose. (Purpose defined as eggs and meat.) Breeders want a bird that will lay well because they will be hatching all of their eggs for potential show winners. Does that mean that all breeder RIR's will have correct wing and tail carriage? No. Will all of the markings be the correct size and in the proper locations? No. But the breeder is working towards the standard to ensure that those traits don't get lost and the breed doesnt stray from what the standad says it should be. Breeders are trying not just to win shows with pretty birds, but trying to keep the best representatives of the breed alive to pass along the best traits to future generations and ensure the survival of the breed as the standard has defined the breed. Poultry shows do not just judge birds on how they look, they will weigh a bird to see if it is standard and measure them as well. If a bird is too small than it is not up to standard. How can it be a good meat bird for example if it is too small? There are also "things" to look for in breeder stock that will give you clues as to their health and production. Correct body size, and bone stucture will be a clue as to how well a female will lay. A narrow body, breast or pelvis may indicate a poor layer. Hatcheries dont have the time or space to cull birds with undesireable traits. They have to produce lots of eggs to hatch so that they have lots of chicks to sell. If they culled all of the undesireable birds, they would have less stock to produce chicks and less chicks to sell. Having said that, it stands to reason that hatchery birds that may have a few undesireable traits will in turn produce offspring with undesieable traits. In time this practice will produce birds that are far from what the standard calls for. If a breed is far from what the standard calls for, how did it go so wrong? Was it the result of crossing to bring out certain traits, such as massive egg production? Or a crossing to correct undesireable traits? We have no proof that hatcheries cross breeds for certain qualities, but there are folks out there that know chickens very well who can spot an imposter/cross breed when they see it. Thes folks who know chickens so well are the breeders that we should be buying stock from. They care how the breeds look and perform and work their hardest to produce the best quality birds. Hatcheries are just mass producing with less regard for quality.

 

[speckledhen]

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You're absolutely right, but can it be said conclusively that all breeder birds are one way or the other? There are vast differences between some breeder lines within the same breed, just as there are between breeder birds and hatchery birds. When it comes down to it, you really just have to do some serious homework on the specific birds you're considering.

Of course, they're not all equal, breeder or hatchery. So many call themselves breeders when they are really propagators, not actually trying to "breed up". The ultimate purpose of the bird may determine if breeder stock is worth the extra expense or not. If you want eggs, and that's it, then hatchery stock is fine (though my hatchery girls seem to die from internal laying more often than not). If you want to breed a bird that looks like it should according to history or the SOP or both, then research real breeders of your chosen breed. Even then, so few are truly of the ultimate quality--that's just genetics.

 

[punky rooster]

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Yes I know I also have some hatchery birds and some of them I really like! I am sorry if I came across rude I never intend on that.

 

[Liamm_1]

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x 2

Not to mention, if you get into 'show quality bred' birds, apparently your level of arrogance rises, as seems apparent as I read through this thread