Whats natural in chickens

[MEMama3]

Sorry, I'm copying my response from the original thread because I want to get in on the action ;-)

I totally see your point. I have a policy in almost all aspects of my life that I want to know what my family, my animals and me myself consume. Be it right or wrong, I prefer to at least try things that I have mentally deemed safe before pulling out the big guns I can't even spell. If I spot even one worm in poultry poo I will feed them a whole pumpkin. It may not work, but it certainly won't hurt them. In fact they rather enjoy it. If it doesn't work, I'll use chemical dewormer. I guess in my head I'm choosing to try the least drastic measure. Now some of it has to do with actual science. You can feed a food that contains an ingredient that is known to cure/fix/aide something or you can feed a medication that was created and modified to contain that ingredient as well as probably a bunch of other crap you don't need.

 

[Beekissed]

how would you have prevented quail disease?

Any disease of an acute nature can be prevented,one just has to have all the pieces into place. We've been raising chickens for three generations here without any disease/illness in the flocks and we don't live in a magic kingdom, so I'm thinking these methods really work.

First, buy/breed for stock that are naturally hardy and suited to your climate. It's a lovely thing to think of raising rare or exotic breeds or species but often their gene pools are small and they are not being developed for disease resistance but rather for making money or merely preserving the breed at all costs(line breeding, inbreeding, etc.) Stack the deck in your favor by obtaining breeds that are known for long and hardy lives.

Being mindful of stocking rates in pens, coops, and pasture. Any excessive stocking rate, even for short periods of time, will be more likely to harbor/spread/incubate pathogens due to lack of air quality, humidity, concentrated fecal deposits, imbalanced soils, living cheek to jowl with one another, poor drainage in over impacted soils.

Being mindful of the pathogens your area is most known for and working to prevent those diseases...like coccidiosis. Just feeding medicated feeds is not enough. Creating a healthy balance of microorganisms in the bowels that can inhibit the overgrowth of these protozoa is the single most effective preventative for getting it. Their healthy metabolism secretes enzymes that prohibit the reproduction of coccidia. They also colonize the intestinal walls so well that the coccidia cannot get a foothold there at all, so it's exclusion working there also.

I take that one step further and expose new chicks to the coop pathogens by brooding them right on the existing deep litter the adult flock have been using and I also scoop a shovelful of soil from the land into their brooder for them to pick at and consume. Exposing chicks to their environmental pathogens at a younger age can help them form stronger antibodies when their bodies are most able to do so....taking 4-8 wk old chicks out to be exposed to the flock's germs for the first time is a recipe for disaster.

The same goes for the soils in your pasture/runs...any imbalance there is going to promote the overgrowth of coccidia, so one must promote a culture in the soils that can prohibit the overgrowth just like one does in the intestines. You can prevent imbalance in the soils by not overstocking, keeping bare soils covered with a diverse deep litter so that the soils do not get over impacted and then have poor drainage. You want those soils to be loose and loamy under that deep litter so that excess nitrogen can be washed downward to a healthy substrate wherein microorganisms, insects and worm life and feed on it and change it to something else that can maintain a better balance in the soils. It's like a self cleaning oven.

Whenever I see a pockmarked, barren, muddy or dry, slimey in the rain and stinking, fly covered run in a chicken setup I can almost bet those people have their fair share of illness in their flocks...it's a petri dish for all that is bad and not an environment for growing anything beneficial. No matter how much raking, shoveling or spreading of PDZ, these runs will never be a healthy place for birds.

Yearly culling for nonlaying or poor laying performance, poor conditioning, poor feed thrift, poor social skills, etc. Usually those all can be found in the same animals. These are your weakest flock members and they are your disease and parasite vectors. It may seem romantic to keep old chickens and let them retired to Happy Acres on your land, but you are just seeding your flocks with birds that are immunocompromised merely due to their age and physical conditions. Studies have shown that 90% of the flock/herd's parasites are being carried by only 5% of the animals...and those are usually the ones showing that evidenced by their poor laying, poor feed thrift, etc. Culling these animals leaves you with the healthiest specimens, that are less likely to contract disease or worm loads. A good indication of a hen's good health is if she is laying well in the appropriate peak seasons.

Get the birds out into their natural habitat as soon as you can...I do it at 2 wks....no matter the costs. The benefit to their health and immune systems is undeniable...clean soils, natural diets, sunshine, fresh air, exercise...all of these produce a healthier, more vigorous and long lived bird. Whatever fencing or predator solutions you have to put into place will save you money in the long run as you live year after year of healthy birds producing at maximum yield while saving you money on feed, consuming foods and minerals that benefit their immune systems, and managing their own health, parasites and socialization.

Any birds showing acute symptoms of hunkering down, fluffed out feathers, going off their feed, isolating themselves, not wanting to move...give them three days to resolve their issue. If it is not naturally resolved, cull the bird. It may seem harsh but it gives the bird relief from discomfort and could possibly save your flock from exposure to pathogens or increased worm loads. The three day rule is great for those moments when you are in doubt of what to do.

It may all sound complicated but it's a holistic approach to livestock management that has been employed since the beginning of farming, that has kept livestock on the land for centuries before the USDA stuck their noses into farming and ruined it all with their advice for mass production.

 

[ozexpat]

It's wonderful that you have generations of knowing what works got you. Some of us aren't that lucky.

So should I not have birds because I am ignorant to the pathogens on our environment until I experience them,?

I grew up on a thousand acres in Australia. There was no grain feeding except pigs. A hundred Angus cows a thousand Marino ewes chickens ducks geese all were free range pasture fed.

Now I am on a beach with one hectare and establishing a new program with little local knowledge available.

Getting birds to survive to adulthood is paramount in being able to breed birds that are introduced to local pathogens in a less devastating way than having your whole program wiped out in five days of illness.

 

[Beekissed]

It's wonderful that you have generations of knowing what works got you. Some of us aren't that lucky.

So should I not have birds because I am ignorant to the pathogens on our environment until I experience them,?

I grew up on a thousand acres in Australia. There was no grain feeding except pigs. A hundred Angus cows a thousand Marino ewes chickens ducks geese all were free range pasture fed.

Now I am on a beach with one hectare and establishing a new program with little local knowledge available.

Getting birds to survive to adulthood is paramount in being able to breed birds that are introduced to local pathogens in a less devastating way than having your whole program wiped out in five days of illness.

No one said you couldn't have birds....don't recall that in my post at all. The post was about tools you can use to combat the pathogens in any environment....do you possibly think that all three generations of people in my flock history had the exact same soils at their place? I've lived on the other side of the state and in a whole different climate and still used these methods.

Anyone can use these methods wherever they live. It takes reading, experimenting, studying the effects of what you do and reading on how to correct it. Most of what I have written applies to any climate out there and any soil you may be standing on. Anyone reading about soils/pastures/livestock can identify healthy soils from nonhealthy just by examining the cover growth, the microbial and bug life in the soils, and how the waters flow through or over it.

No one said it would be easy and you'll never find out what works naturally if you throw medicine at every problem that arises in a flock or herd. Sure, you can expect losses in your learning curve...who doesn't? But time, learning and not trying to run before you can crawl can help you ease into your new environment.

I know it's frustrating and it seems easier to just medicate than to go slow and learn your soils and area, but years from now, if you have not learned what works in your area naturally, you will still be seeing big losses and still be medicating for them. The problem with curative methods is that the livestock have to become ill before you can implement them, where as preventative methods ~by their mere nature~prevent it from ever happening at all. It's not luck...that's like saying those who train for the Olympics for 4 years just got lucky when they won. It takes work and dedication to an ideal and belief in a system that really works, has proven itself year in and year out and sticking to it.

 

[Beekissed]

Another thing to note...each generation has improved on the last. My granny nor mother knew anything about deep litter nor did they feed fermented feeds to the chickens except for the occasional buttermilk or whey from the farm so that it wouldn't go to waste. My mother is amazed to stand in a chicken coop that doesn't smell in the heat of the summer and that it attracts no flies. She loves it!

My granny would have loved that method and also would have definitely fermented her corn for the chooks if she had known what I know now. She would also have loved the bleach jug killing cone...she just tied her birds to the clothes line and cut off their heads.

I hope I never get done learning new and natural ways to improve the health and life of these birds. When I'm done learning, then I'm done with it all.

 

[perchie.girl]

It's wonderful that you have generations of knowing what works got you. Some of us aren't that lucky.

So should I not have birds because I am ignorant to the pathogens on our environment until I experience them,?

I grew up on a thousand acres in Australia. There was no grain feeding except pigs. A hundred Angus cows a thousand Marino ewes chickens ducks geese all were free range pasture fed.

Now I am on a beach with one hectare and establishing a new program with little local knowledge available.

Getting birds to survive to adulthood is paramount in being able to breed birds that are introduced to local pathogens in a less devastating way than having your whole program wiped out in five days of illness.

Its amazing the progress you have made on that Hectare in the past year Oz.... from building your own incubators to figuring out the logistics of getting eggs.... Then dealing with a climate that is Too wet.... Then developing your own feed based on what you can obtain in the Philippines Once you get your flocks viable and raising their own you will figure out what works for you...

I think there can be a happy medium.... Between the learning curve and Achieving as natural as possible. I have only been keeping chickens now off and on about 20 years. My main problem is predation.... But thats me. When I started out I used Storeys Guide.... and four chicks. figuring Id wind up loosing at least two..... Who knew those little fuzzbutts were hearty enough to survive me....

I have never had to deal with sickness.... Injury yes. And have gotten through that with my own husbandry skills from keeping horses and dogs.

deb

 

[ozexpat]

My situation is rather unique. I am in very much uncharted territory.

There is little our no knowledge on how to deal with issues I am confronting.

I imagine that in a few generations I will have some pretty hardy birds.

Having consumed battery hen eggs and Franken chickens for the past fifty years I love the minimally intervened produce I am enjoying now.

It's not organic as such but it's a lot closer to chemical free than earlier options.

 

[ozexpat]

I am not anti-organic.I do believe in scientifically proven therapies though.

Working in healthcare I see humans that reach for herbal remedies often. While some work, others have just as many side effects as modern medicines.

As these herbal remedies become "trendy" we see more people taking them and better sample sizes to study efficacy and side effect.

Many remedies have been debunked. I was on the the fish oil bandwagon and now it's shown that the capsules do nothing

 

[ozexpat]

One "natural" remedy in the chicken world that concerns me is DE.

In my humble opinion, this stuff is dangerous to our health by breathing it in yet it's used as a dust bath for chickens

 

[Beekissed]

One "natural" remedy in the chicken world that concerns me is DE.

In my humble opinion, this stuff is dangerous to our health by breathing it in yet it's used as a dust bath for chickens

I'm not a fan...never used it. It seems to have turned into the current cure all. Much like ACV in the water, which I've been using for years now but for some reason people think it will deworm and keep their birds healthy no matter what other methods they use on their flocks.

There is no magic bullet for good health, be it human or animal, but mostly just a good lifestyle, sensible health habits, and healthy eating that seem to win out over and over.