What's the point in dubbing????

[High Roost Ranch]

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Not likely to happen any day soon. As with tail docking, ear cropping, etc in dogs. Us humans are set on maiming animals for our enjoyment.

If you are calling Dubbing, Docking and Cropping, "maiming" than would Implants, Reductions, Tattoos, Piercings, and any other Body Augmentations that people do to there self be the same.
People do far more, "maiming" things to there selves than what we do to other animals.

Chris

Chris, I'm on your team. I DO dub my show birds. But a fact is a fact. It's maiming for a human choice, the bird or dog in question has no choice in the matter. What people do to their own bodies is their own choice, it's a conscious decision. The only point I am making is it's not done for the animal's best interest, in most cases.

 

[LoupGarou]

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If you are calling Dubbing, Docking and Cropping, "maiming" than would Implants, Reductions, Tattoos, Piercings, and any other Body Augmentations that people do to there self be the same.
People do far more, "maiming" things to there selves than what we do to other animals.

Chris

Chris, I'm on your team. I DO dub my show birds. But a fact is a fact. It's maiming for a human choice, the bird or dog in question has no choice in the matter. What people do to their own bodies is their own choice, it's a conscious decision. The only point I am making is it's not done for the animal's best interest, in most cases.

If you feel that way about dubbing, then 1) fight to change your breed standard so that birds that are not dubbed can be shown or 2) don't show your birds. If you do dub and object to it so strenuously, then you are hypocritical for doing so. I, personally, see no reason to dub any bird in this day and age and, with animal rights extremists running rampant, I wouldn't risk it due to the likelihood of being accused of fighting my birds. After all, if you have a spring pole or a treadmill in your yard or home and happen to own an American Bulldog or an American Pit Bull Terrier (or their relatives), then CLEARLY you're a dog fighter--at least according to the extremists. (Note: that is NOT my personal belief, although I do object to spring poles.)

I have dogs with docked tails, which I breed and show. I have never seen one of them experience more than a second of stress when the tails are docked at the age of 2 days, other than them being taken from their mothers for the surgery. I have seen a good share of dogs with their ears healing from being cropped and, if done by a professional, those dogs experience little stress other than adjusting to the contraption strapped to their heads to help their ears stand. In both cases, docking and cropping, there was HISTORICAL purpose for the surgery. Guard dogs had their ears cropped in order to prevent them from being grabbed by a convenient handle--the same reason for many tails being done. (Why not the German Shepherd, then? Because they were historically a herding breed and were selected for the army/police work for their trainability, not their guarding instinct.) In many breeds, when they ceased performing their function, the dock/crop went away. Dalmatians were once a cropped breed, but once they stopped guarding carriages they stopped being cropped. Terriers had half their tails removed so that their handlers could actually grab their tails more easily when pulling them out of holes. Some hunting breeds had their tails docked to prevent injury in the field. Many docked dogs run agility courses and perform incredible athletic feats with no difficulty--even if you feel it's not in the dog's best interest, clearly it's not against it. What *is* in the dog's best interest is if the dog's tail is eventually going to be docked that it be done at a day or two old, from the beginning. After that point, removing the tail becomes major surgery instead of a single snip and one or two stitches to close the skin..

I see nothing wrong with people objecting to docking and cropping, but to put them into the worst possible light (and to say that humans "enjoy maiming animals") is misanthropic and smacks of extremism. Believe it or not, this is (or should be) one of those Tallentyre moments: “I disapprove of what you say [do], but I will defend to the death your right to say [do] it." Animal rights extremists are looking for any way to shove a wedge between people who breed and show their animals and those who "merely" own them. It happens all of the time and we're fighting an uphill battle if we're going to keep our right to own or breed animals at all. What we *don't* need are more people who are active in any animal fancy coming out and using such language that would put the fancy in a negative light.

Sorry about being on the soapbox, but last time I was at an agility trial I was sitting in the stands with a club member who uses a purebred service dog. It turns out that she *supports* the Humane Society of the United States* because "there are more bad breeders than good ones out there." I tried to object, but she told me that I "had to know it was the truth, since it was all over the news." I looked at her, down to her service dog, and out to the happy, healthy, well-bred dogs performing amazing tasks out in the ring. I opened my mouth, closed it, and walked away. I haven't spoken to her since. I wonder where she thinks she'll get another Rottweiler in 10 years if the AR extremists have their
way?

 

[High Roost Ranch]

I never said I object to it so strenuously. How can I and take part in the process at the same time; that would be hypocritical of me at best. I am aware on a personal level that it is a choice that I make as a part of being in the breed (Moderns for me). I do however see both sides of the coin is all I'm trying to say. The joy of two different view points is we can agree to disagree.

I highly doubt that all the cockers with OEGB (I used OEGB since they comprise the largest # of games) are going to up and say one day soon, that for the love of the breed, let's stop dubbing our birds and jump on the AR bandwagon and push to change a long standing tradition with two major associations. That bloody isn't likely to happen any time soon, pun intended.

It's either accept the standard and dub, or don't and keep the combed birds at home.

 

[tnchickenut]

A.T. Hagan :

It's a hold over from the cock fighting days that has now become solidly ensconced as a tradition. Maybe one day they'll dump it since there is no practical reason for doing it now.

It is still is practical for those fighters!

I wish they would dump it just so we, as buyers, could easily tell who fights and who is just breeding the breed. Ya know? Probrably make it easier for law enforcement too... oh wait, that is a oximoron... that law doesn't get enforced. (at least not here)​

 

[High Roost Ranch]

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It is still is practical for those fighters!

I wish they would dump it just so we, as buyers, could easily tell who fights and who is just breeding the breed. Ya know? Probrably make it easier for law enforcement too... oh wait, that is a oximoron... that law doesn't get enforced. (at least not here)

There's more practices than just dubbing that is common with fighting cocks. Saying dubbing indicates a fighting bird is like saying any Pit Bull with cropped ears is certainly used for fighting. JMO.

 

[tnchickenut]

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It is still is practical for those fighters!

I wish they would dump it just so we, as buyers, could easily tell who fights and who is just breeding the breed. Ya know? Probrably make it easier for law enforcement too... oh wait, that is a oximoron... that law doesn't get enforced. (at least not here)

There's more practices than just dubbing that is common with fighting cocks. Saying dubbing indicates a fighting bird is like saying any Pit Bull with cropped ears is certainly used for fighting. JMO.

Why is it people don't understand my points... ever?

IF there was no reason to dub ( in other words the SOP was changed) OTHER than fighting... you could tell who was fighting and who wasn't. BECAUSE people just breeding and showing would no longer be dubbing... because the SOP wouldn't demand it for show.

Thought it was clear the first time.


As for pit bulls... that is a different game. Chicken people either show/breed or have farm stock/pets. OR fight. People who have dogs have them for many more reasons... like having a dog who has a reputation of being vicious so they can feel "bad" or should I say "tough". Plus your arguement is MUTE because Pits can't be shown... not AKC reconized. And no, I'm not a pit hater... to me, the smaller the dog the more vicious. I'm simply stating the stigma.

If Games were not reconized THEN you would have a case... but seeing how they are, and people have them either for show or fighting or pets... you don't have a case. There is no reason someone who doesn't show would dub their birds. You said that. SOOOOOOOO if the only two reason are fighting or show AND the APA SOP changes to "un-dubbed" then the only ones left with dubs (after that dubbed generation of stock goes) would be fighters.

So if someone like me who is strongly against animal fighting of any sort wanted to buy a trio of OEG I could THEN quickly tell who I want to buy from by looking at their stock. Sure their is a chance that someone dubs because "my daddy did it" but the buyer have a easier time finding breeders they don't question to why they are in the breed. And if it were me, would be more likely to buy.

ETA: also I don't know of anyone who would dub a rooster and set them out to be guard roosters.... alot of people crop dogs just to LOOK tough to run people off (like in Pits). Showing or not, that is there motivation. A dubbed rooster doesn't look any meaner than a un-dubbed. Again, your arguement is mute.

 

[KenK]

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I have always and will continue to dub any game rooster I own. The only reason I have, or need, is that they look like a game rooster should when dubbed.

 

[Medicine Man]

Because it looks cool, man! Like a Doberman with cropped ears! It's tough!

 

[tnchickenut]

Exactly, Medicine Man....

And I was only using his words... he says he does it BECAUSE of the SOP... "accept the SOP or keep your birds at home"

I realize there are people who always will, but times are a-changin', my friends and the next generation will have less that would do it IF the SOP was changed.

For the record: I don't think the SOP will change though, so we really are wasting a nice afternoon.

 

[High Roost Ranch]

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If your post regarding "he" was directed at me, I'm a she. Agree to disagree regarding your point and mine. Enjoy your afternoon.