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What's the purpose for pecking order?

Rose, where I lived at the time had never heard of it but they were all too happy to order it for me, which was cheaper than I could have ordered it online. See if they will order some for you if they don't have it and go low...I ordered that big of a bag because I had sheep and a few cows, but it lasted for years! Most health food stores will have kelp but you will walk out of the store missing some body parts..if you can walk.

If your feed store is TSC, I doubt you will convince them to order it for you...I deal with real feed stores that grind their own feeds for the most part, so they aren't part of a large franchise and have more freedom about how they service customers.

No I don't buy my feeds from TSC Bee. I buy mine from a Mississippi based company and there are several feed stores around here that sell their feed. I will check and see IF one of them will order me a small bag if they can get small bags. LOL yeah the health food stores do like taking ya arm and ya legs don't they?
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I was getting red yeast rice to lower my cholestrol sp? which wasn't but 20 points or so too high and one of them was almost 20 bucks when I could get it online for about half that and get one free to boot.

Thanx!!!
 
Any animals that cannot secure breeding space, resources, and a mate, will not pass on its genes. But if a species is genetically healthy many animals will make it to breeding age and have the ability to compete for resources; at this point differentiating behaviors sort out with the least waste of energy and life possible which animals get prime breeding opportunities. Lesser animals who failed to achieve dominance will still breed, being the middling best, not the worst and not the best, but this failure to secure top spot, whether caused by genetics or diet or whatever, will soon become genetic; they may have started off with identical genetic strength to the ones that achieved dominance, but having failed to secure the best resources, their offspring are now vastly more likely to fail to achieve prime breeding success. So even if it wasn't their genetics that caused them to come second best, if they don't manage to achieve dominant status they will get the lesser feed, worse nesting spots, lesser mates, lesser opportunities for offspring, etc, and quickly this can translate into weaker genetics, since behavior, environment, nutrition etc all turn genes off or on. This is when harsher methods of attempting to achieve dominance start to show with some --- psychopathy or excessive, almost insane brutality being one method by which a sub par male or female takes a dominant position it could not earn otherwise. Other lesser animals will develop greater intelligence and cunning, which in a few generations can restore them to the top of the genetic competition and thus net them the resources they need to regain genetic strength. Environmental influences activate and deactivate some behaviors. An overabundance of great nutrition can becalm even the most aggressive species. A lack of nutrition, or low levels of it present in the environment, can cause once peaceful animals to become savage, and kickstarts the 'depopulation' instinct. This can also occur in an animal in a rich environment, where the lack of nutrition is only within the animal, i.e. an inability to synthesize something crucial, or a weakened digestive system. Or a domestic animal fed an overprocessed diet, as another example. In the wild, a flock/family group is often only comprised of one male and one female, sometimes more. They need a set area to survive, and a larger area than that to bring offspring to adulthood. Since the impetus behind any animal's life is to pass on its genes, the drive to procreate produces in most species some sort of behavior of environmental control, whether they're removing the unfit from their social group or protecting their territory from intruders who would consume the sources of nutrition they require to survive and succeed at reproducing. A rooster controls his territory from being invaded by other roosters, and a hen controls her territory from being invaded by other hens. She may tolerate a sister or other hen with which she gets along. She may not. A lot depends on personality there. The better the hen in terms of intelligence, genetic strength, and health, the less likely she is to tolerate another. She will want the very best possible chances for her offspring, and having another hen taking up resources for her own babies does not wash when there is not an overabundance. There's a certain 'arrogance' that comes with being genetically superior, among animals. Unlike us they are very aware of one another's genetic strengths and weaknesses, and therefore fitness to breed. A sub par animal can become dominant through excess aggression, though. With males of many species there is a positive correlation between excessive aggression and low fertility. This has been proven with a few livestock species as well as wild ones, and I have always found it to hold true in my animals of various species. Abnormal aggression and harem keeping are the breeding tactics of the sub par male, and they reward him with offspring from only sub par females. Never the twain shall meet, it seems, with the best, middling, and worst genetic stock. There are many factors that keep them separate within the species, including vastly different breeding behavior; among many ruminants as well as felines and birds, the very best males often don't bother to hold territories or fight over a group of females as all the middling males do; rather, the best males continue life as normal and the best females seek them out, even if they were associating with a group thought to belong to some other male. Females will resort to very sneaky behavior to breed with the male of their choice, even while seeming to be the mate of another male. Many females will mate when not fertile with a sub par male, to appease him, but will seek out a better male when fertile. I've seen this behavior in various species. Many males and females who are conscious of their worth genetically will refuse to mate with a lower grade individual. Among red deer and many other animals a dominant female produces dominant sons, but a sub par female never produces dominant sons. There is some steep competition for the best females but the best females will never mate with sub par males... Unless some disaster or human intervention ensures it. The area of territory, and how rich it is in feed, determines to a large extent how much territory they need to hold to guarantee reproductive success, and it also determines how tolerant any female will be of another female. If there's not much area due to neighboring territories, and not much feed for whatever reason, then both genders will be extra fierce and intolerant and a single female will remain with the male, having driven off all others. If there is enough feed for all you can end up with many antisocial species coming to live in huge, peaceful groups, and sub-par animals are far more likely to breed since they no longer need to compete for resources with the better stock. This is a sort of genetic leveling ground, where genetic lines that had fallen behind the dominant ones can regain the ability to compete due to the environmental excess of resources. Contrary to popular belief a male is not naturally dominant over females. That's an aberrant mentality we are responsible for breeding into them. The hen holds her own social status which is entirely independent from the male, and she only fights other females for her spot... It is, after all, the 'top hen spot'. The male also holds his own social status irrespective of the females, and only fights other males to retain 'top rooster spot'. The roles are complimentary, not competitive. There is no natural dominance of male over female; there is no natural fight between them. Neither is there any natural abuse of either gender by the other. A roosterless flock wherein the hens retain instinctual understanding of natural chicken society will embrace a newly introduced male, or several, without any fighting. Because he does not take the dominant hen's position there is no challenge nor fight to sort out where he is in the pecking order. This is also why a hen and rooster meeting each other for the first time do not fight to sort out the pecking order between them --- their gender-determined social statuses are complementary, not conflicting. When you have a male and female meet with either one or both lacking proper instinct about the other gender's social place or their own, then you have a fight. In most cases the rooster will accede the fight as his instinct kicks in and he realizes he should not be fighting a female. A male who harms a female severely lessens his chances of reproducing, and thus such aberrant males tend to ensure they fail to pass on their genes. Each gender has their own predetermined role, for which they have fought all the others of their own gender who could challenge them, and neither of them attempts to take the other gender's role and prerogatives from their mate. If they're mentally healthy, that is. Many chickens these days have warped and misdirected instincts due to their ancestors being raised for countless generations in artificial environments, in human-enforced social orders, and a psychopathic, neurotic or socially incompetent chicken would still be bred if it showed a desirable trait like extra production of flesh or eggs, so in thus usurping natural selection, we have developed and preserved many deranged mentalities among modern domestic poultry which bear no resemblance to natural wild ones. In the wild a male does not harm or drive away hens, or interfere with their fights, or kill babies. These are all unnatural, unhealthy cull-worthy domestic-only traits. Now, instead of having males who only control other males, we have males who also take the top hen's position, and abuse females. It is not natural for any animal to interfere with subordinate's social struggles. This does not resolve the problem nor sort out the pecking order between the two. In my experience, a dominant creature attacking two fighting subordinates causes the root of contention to worsen between them until it becomes likely that instead of sorting out the issue without bloodshed, they will in future maim or kill one another. If you watch wild animals, hierarchy disputes between subordinates are left to be sorted out by them with the dominant animals ignoring the fight. It is utterly unnatural for a male to harm a female, but it's considered normal by many. Normal is not the same thing as natural or healthy. Case in point: cancer is normal; carcinogens are normal; in a natural environment they are so scarce as to be a rare cause of problems, though in this increasingly polluted world they are now normal in 'pristine' areas too. In artificial environments, they are a constant and increased hazard. People often confuse the establishment and maintenance of the pecking order with outright bullying and abuse. These latter behaviors are unnatural and we bred them into poultry via bad breeding selection and intensive environments. It is natural for animals to sort out the hierarchy as peacefully, non-harmfully, quickly, and quietly as possible. Anything else exposes both participants to a heightened risk of injury, death, falling victim to predation, etc. For the same reason it is, for most species, unnatural for a creature to spend its valuable resources of time and energy trying to harm or kill an already injured or ill family member, or other member of its social group. It is entirely natural to drive them away, but to try to destroy them predisposes them to catching its disease, or risking becoming injured, or falling to a predator while distracted, etc. The risks outweigh the vague potential benefits. For the greater majority of the time the damaged animals are left to die, and indeed seek to separate themselves to die, whether attacked or not. It is rare that any species kills its weak or damaged members, despite what we were taught at school and see in many misinformation-laden documentaries. I've studied animals for decades now and what research teaches us compared to what pop-pseudoscience teaches us are two vastly different things. A lot of misinformation is still passed around, some of it serving an old outdated worldview whose proponents were willing to misrepresent facts to preserve their societies' norms (i.e.the many old 'facts' concerning the animal world which were skewed to cast the prevailing social arrangement of human society over animal society too; many of these old non-truths are still taught and believed despite much proof to the opposite. These include patriarchal interpretations of social structure, with researchers assuming rather than ascertaining at best and sometimes outright lying at worst; they imagined males were dominant in all species, as per their worldview, and taught it as fact despite much evidence that male and female roles are not antagonistic, and flocks/herds are always headed/led/dominated/disciplined by females, since males come and go but females remain). A male competes with males and a female with females. For obvious biological reasons males and females do not compete unless deranged. He has no need to compete with his mate for somewhere to lay his eggs, as an example. ;) If a chicken has determined that it is dominant over another, there will only be a challenge if the subordinate chicken makes one. Otherwise, having settled their places in the hierarchy, the dominant chicken will leave the subordinate alone, and it in turn will avoid the dominant chicken and show appeasing body language and deference whenever they meet, and there will be no daily squabbling. There may be no squabbling or fighting for their entire lives if the subordinate never challenges the dominant. Between socially healthy chickens, peace will prevail. The same is true of basically every livestock species. Some families are more aggressive than others, but it is never the fault of the gender, nor the breed, nor the species. It is the fault of the breeder for breeding on with intolerant or outright violent animals. There are various body language modes/gestures a chicken will adopt to show its non-confrontational status to a dominant chicken. Different behaviors exist between males and females but the end result is the same. The dominant one is shown respect and has no need to reinforce its dominance. A good chook will be satisfied with that; a bad chook will continue to attack when not challenged. In a socially healthy environment, a hen never shows subordinate behavior to a rooster, because she is not subordinate to him. When trying to woo a new mate, a rooster will adopt very unoffensive body language; not subordinate but very non-offensive and clearly peaceful. But it is not natural for either gender to show submissive body language to one another. People often confuse a female's invitation to mate with submission, but this is merely another outdated worldview lens that persists. There is no need for the dominant one to regularly harm or abuse the subordinate. A little scuffle is normal but constant abuse of the subordinate is not. The real challenge for many chicken owners is to separate natural and health instincts from unnatural and unhealthy. Some people think anything they do is 'natural', unfortunately. Some domestic instincts are bad, others good/productive, like chickens peacefully sorting out the pecking order and coexisting in peace. Some wild instincts are good, others 'bad'/counterproductive, like fear of humans and the unhelpful desire to have a minimum of birds per a set amount of acres. It is not healthy nor natural for birds to be vicious with one another under any circumstance other than intensive caging of a large flock, but even then, domestic chickens have endured that and been bred and selected for coping without violence under such circumstances for uncounted generations, so bully birds represent another extreme that requires culling rather than breeding on. If you want a peaceful flock, the solution is not to remove the bullied, but to remove the bullies. For some reason people always seem to remove the bullied and keep the bullies! We have been taught that if it's bullied, it was for good cause; surely it's weak or unfit to breed. Often though the bully is the one that's unfit to breed, and is mentally aberrant which shows in it being abnormally vicious, and thus it gains a dominant place for being the equivalent of a psychopath. This will often breed true if allowed. And it is. Aaaaaanyway, long story, hope something in there is of use. Best wishes.
That's really interesting so pleased I found this thread! I've only been keeping chickens for a year and have never noticed any squabbling at all!! I had a really peaceful flock of 4 British orpingtons such lovely birds. 2 went broody so I let them hatch out a few eggs last week so we've now got 4 new chicks. My friend gave me a beautiful young Roo who's so sweet and very good natured. Anyway the long and the short is one of my hens has become very aggressive! Pecking my toddler, pecking and breaking the eggs the broodies were on ( I later secure gated the broodies to stop this) but now she's terrorising the Roo! She rarely lets him roost in the coup or eat (they're totally free range so they have plenty of space) but this morning his beak was bleeding and there was blood trickling down his legs where she'd pecked him so hard
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he's the same size as her currently so not a tiny little think and I'm sure due to outsize her significantly. What do I do!?! is it just the 2 hens been taken out that's unhinged her and she'll Jo back to normal or will this now continue?! I thought the Roo would just instinctively jump the pecking order? thanks for any help Jo
 
He has indeed 'jumped the social order' --- to top rooster place. She's trying to jump the order to top hen spot, but her behavior shows she is mentally aberrant.

It's not his job to beat his 'wife' for acting insane. This is not natural in the animal world. Humans often project their diseased relationship structures onto animals despite all the evidence to the contrary. It's not all a violent kill or be killed struggle as has so often been repeated. In fact, many animals could teach us a lot about respect, both cross-species and intra-species. It is utterly unnatural for a male to harm a female.

A socially inept or unhinged chicken has no respect for the social order. Since she started normally, it's safe to say she's not inept, but has gone a fair bit nuts without having a dominant hen to correct her. Some chickens of both genders do not cope with being alpha or having a chance to become alpha --- they will go nuts and become savagely violent. This is generally a permanent change, and it's almost always best to remove such a bird from the flock.

In the wild she would not find a mate or a flock which would tolerate her, and she would die alone, without breeding. Her aberrant mental and behavioral patterns would die out with her. Your rooster would walk off and leave her behind, and go breed with another hen, if this were a wild scenario.

Nothing is more frightening to an animal than insanity. Insanity usually equals disease or toxicity, as in, it was caused by one or the other.

It's very possible this has happened to your hen somehow --- mercury and lead are two commonly encountered toxins which cause very violent behavior in the creature afflicted by them. For example, on most old farms, the soil around sheds and garages almost always contains at least one batteries' liquid contents, which have mingled with the soils but are still present and able to cause retardation or toxicity if consumed in tiny amounts. This can also happen with skin exposure. Old lead paint's something many farm animals will eat, too. Water contamination is another common hazard. Even if the water is safe she could have drunk from another area. We had a dam on one property which we only found out after a drought was in fact a landfill, complete with batteries and tyres. Even if it seems safe, don't trust it automatically.
Quote: Very likely, however she is not going about her quest for top hen spot in a normal way. As you've noted, 'unhinged' is a pretty good way to describe what she's doing, attacking a rooster and a toddler and destroying eggs. That's as many warning signs as I'd take from any chook, in fact it's a surplus. If she were mine I'd cull.

She may have remained normal all her life if she did not suddenly find herself in such a position of newfound power, but it's for the best that this has emerged and you have spotted it now. It was always lurking, it did not develop overnight. Her opportunity to display it has come, that's all. This underlying negative and destructive behavior is very likely the reason she was lower in the social order than the other two hens before. She's not mentally fit to be the top hen.

There is every chance she will kill any chicks she can, and maybe even damage your other birds severely. For your whole flock's sake I would remove her. I would expect her to produce sons who are very likely to attack and maybe even kill your toddler. She may not --- but the chance is too great a risk to take.

If she was just attacking your rooster I'd think she's either not used to roosters or he's a bad specimen genetically, but he sounds great and she's attacking everything, just about, from the sounds of it; this means she is at fault. If he ends up attempting to defend himself from the crazy hen, there you have it, a good rooster who has turned into a potential hen killer. He sounds like a better flock member than her, hence worthy of being kept.

To me, she sounds like she is possibly preparing to brood while trying to solidify her new top status, but she's doing it in an extremely aggressive way which is not natural nor healthy. Your options are very limited since not much actually seems to work with badly behaved chickens.

You could separate her, or try to get another hen who will dominate her, or shackle her so she cannot harass your rooster. But this won't change her mind, and won't protect your toddler, and won't protect the eggs in future. Was she eating them or just smashing them? Either way, bad trait, and heritable. Also able to be learned very quickly, so be wary of that. It's likely to breed on. If you don't want more like her, getting rid of her is the best option. It's kind of the only option, sorry.

If you choose to shackle her, take a soft rounded shoelace, and tie it around each ankle, not so tight it cuts off circulation, and not so loose it slips over either foot or knee; leave only enough lace between the feet for a normal walking pace step, not a running pace. She can then dustbathe, jump up onto the perch and down from it too, nest, and so forth without an issue, but she can't chase and molest your rooster. Make sure the knots are very good and won't slip and tighten if you do this. Personally I think she's showed you some serious faults in need of culling out of the flock but I understand this may not be something you want to do.

Anyway, best wishes, whatever your choice.
 
Oh gosh I was hoping that wouldn't be the case!
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is it worth waiting until the other hens are out of the brooder pen to see if that settles things? thanks for all your insight
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I can only tell you what I would do if this happened in my flock. If this bird had never shown this behavior before and she was one of my best hens, I'd take a little time to change her attitude a bit. I'd monitor flock relations at key times of the day and take her down a notch each time she asserted herself over that rooster. You can leave it alone and he will eventually assert himself, but if you want it done a little quicker, you can place him on the roost at night....right where she roosts and politely knock her down off it when you do so. Monitor feeding time and bring a light weight cane or rod and when she gets aggressive towards him at the feeder, tap her on the head~not hard..we aren't trying to hurt her, just redirect her~ each time until she is careful about even approaching him.

Back him up a little in the order of things and see if just this slight intervention doesn't give him a bit of an edge. If it doesn't you haven't lost anything but time...either way, he will assert himself in the end and things will settle down. Young roosters have to work their way up the pecking order just like anyone else, though your hen sounds a bit more aggressive than any pecking order sorting than I've ever experienced. I've never seen blood drawn between roosters or between hens and certainly not between a rooster and a hen.

She needs an attitude adjustment or a culling if it doesn't sort itself out.
 
Quote: Having had babies changes a hen's place in the social order. Some bullies who usually sit subordinate to these hens on the social order, who often lack mothering ability themselves, will sometimes make trouble for the new mother and/or her babies. In the natural family structure a hen would not need to be defending her social status while mothering, she'd just be focusing on rearing her bubs and regaining strength. Right before the brood is when a hen typically tries to reinforce her social status. After the brood she is somewhat depleted and can be easier a target for the bully. This is when hens who usually have less or no maternal instinct will often take exception to the strange, seemingly incomprehensible (to them) behavior the mother exhibits, which is perceived as weakness.

I expect this hen will give you trouble with the young ones, but if you're attached to her then I'd think maybe Beekissed's training might work. If I judge by my own experiences I would think it won't work, but my experiences do not cover the whole spectrum. I know it's not easy to just give up without seeing if you can rectify the issue, and why should you? Nothing wrong with trying, in fact there's everything right with it.

In this case, I'd consider the hen's faults too extreme a risk in terms of future results and generational expression. An attack on a human I never tolerate, but then again you've not specified how severe that is... Not that I ever allow more than a mother's peckings when on the eggs, and even that must be within reason and not overly rough.

I've tried all manner of training on my chooks but no longer bother because the behavioral issues tend to recur for generations. But I don't doubt this is influenced by my feeding of kelp to them, since this causes stronger expression of all traits, as well as quicker encoding into the genes. So it's far, far quicker to breed good (or bad) birds when giving kelp. Since I'm running a bit of a rapid operation, breeding crops of 'edibles' as well as good hardy and productive stock year in year out, I can't tolerate any troublemaker. They all free range together, and they'd best do it in peace, or else! If I had considered her one of my best before this behavior, I'd quickly remove her from that title.

Having said that, I only keep mongrels, so my choices in the matter necessarily differ from someone breeding purebreds, or just recreationally breeding instead of trying to feed their family. So regardless of my usually pro-cull stance for negative traits, you have to decide what's right for you. In general, I suggest you don't respect anyone's advice so deeply that you apply it without question. Everyone's flock is different, and so is everyone's situation and experiences. Best wishes.
 

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