Who says cedar is bad for chickens???

[Black Feather]

Thanks for the references. I have some reading to do!

Cheers,
Urban Coyote

 

[gumpsgirl]

I am also thankful for the references.

horsejody - That is a great article! Thanks for posting that.

 

[ivan3]

Just a few more observations: We have Wild Eastern Turkeys that use certain areas of our property. There are two favorite nesting locations: Under Multifloral Rose/Gooseberry bowers (thorny) and under our stand of cedars (planted a lot eleven yrs. ago and all are now about 8-12ft. in height). Turkey poults are excellent biological assays as they are more sensitive to insult than other birds. There is very little clearance under the lower branches and, as I planted them too close together, no space between trees to speak of, I have to get down on hands and knees to see the hen(s) and poults), they come marching out looking pretty fit.

I went looking for `real world' measures of VOC (pine shavings not cedar - commercial industry uses pine shavings almost exclusively), and came across this: http://lib.bioinfo.pl/pmid:8686660 (didn't represent a problem for the mice or the humans).

I don't doubt the accuracy of any of the research cited in earlier posts, but all of us are currently running our own `experiments' and, though a certain degree of precision might be lacking in design/materials/methods, it is quite possible to achieve a relatively accurate picture from our `anecdotal crude approximations' of the actual threat.

I've only heard wheezing over the baby monitor once: This followed an April hail storm that tore/smashed pretty much destroyed all the leaf buds on the hickories and oaks. The air afterwards was still and foggy and smelled strongly of lysol (terpenes). I went into a sneezing, drooling, snot filled two hours and the chooks were heard wheezing and sneezing. So, yes, at high concentrations they are a problem. At low concentrations, more research is ongoing, here...

interesting thread!

 

[Akane]

The problem is while low levels with small amounts of aired cedar in well ventilated areas may not produce noticeable symptoms that does not mean it's not doing damage. One of the points made by the research done is that even with no visible problems the animals were found to have higher liver enzymes and when killed and cut open several were found to have liver disease. That's despite no outward symptoms. Even if your chickens look fine on cedar shavings they may still be suffering some stress. This may lead to them dying of what appears to be other causes. They may get sick easier or just seem to be slowing down and dying of old age when they are still fairly young. You don't know because you have no way to test aside from putting a large number of related chickens of the same breed in 2 different coops with 2 different beddings and waiting several years to see what the mortality and laying rates are. Why take the time and risk? It's been proven that cedar does have some impact and pine shavings are just as cheap and easy to find. Personally I think it's dumb to risk your animals when all the vets, labs, researchers, breeders, rescues, shelters, etc... agree that cedar does cause problems and you really gain nothing by using it in place of pine. No one really disagrees and there is no research saying cedar is safe so what's the point of running your own test that does not follow scientific procedures, has no control to compare to, does not involve blood tests, and really proves nothing except that most of your chickens can survive on cedar if they have to. You still won't have proven that it's safe and does not impact long term health or laying because you've got nothing to compare it to.

 

[ivan3]

I was pretty much addressing the issue of toxicity of kiln dried pine, not cedar (wouldn't use it myself) see my earlier post.

 

[patandchickens]

Quote:
I am curious on what basis of evidence you say that?

AFAIK, typical cedar shavings have a much higher concentration of volatile oils than typical pine shavings (as used by consumer, I mean, not necessarily when they first come offa the logs)

Reference would be welcome.

BTW, let me point out that this really only applies to fresh cedar and cedar shavings/chips... cedar POSTS, used outdoors, are a total nonissue (because of the ventilation coefficient of The Great Outdoors) and cedar lumber is probably pretty ok too because of the small surface area which has in many cases already been pretty well depleted of volatile oils.

Basically, if something smells like a cedar closet (or fresh-cut pine tree, or any other resinous strong smell) when it's in an enclosed space, it would be wisest not to use it in an enclosed space.


Pat

 

[jvls1942]

I am just wondering.. how long do the chickens have to be exposed to the cedar bedding for it to affect them to the point of ill health and/or death??

My point being, If you are going to butcher them at 10 weeks, how much harm is done?? I am asking.
don't interpret this as a challenge.

 

[Black Feather]

I've only once kept my chickens on cedar shavings and did not observe any ill health results. For the last five years I've been keeping my chickens on softwood shavings. A mix of pine, spruce and other softwoods (whatever the mill delivers to the farm for the horses I use for the chickens). I have not observed any ill effects due to respiratory stress. I very rarely get sniffles in my coop and the sniffles I do get are usually due to a dramatic drop in temp in the fall/winter which can sometimes cause the birds to get snuffly. I also keep my coop quite clean and I will dust it out once or twice a year. My coop also has excellent ventilation. Those are my observations from my own experiences.

I personally am much more concerned with the level of dust in my coop than the bedding itself.

Cheers,
Urban Coyote

 

[leasmom]

I currently have a chicken that seems to be dying. She isn't sneezing or breathing heavy. I have been buying cedar shavings from walmart for the past two months because the sawdust I was getting from the mill seems to have dried up or something, but anyway, I couldn't get it. So, I had one chicken die mysteriously like she just froze to death early in the morning which could've happened because we had a situation where a rat had chewed through the floor of the coop and she apparently sat outside in the cold and died. This one won't eat and barely is drinking anything but she has been like this for awhile. SHe would let all the other girls get food and she would just stand there and then when the food was nearly all gone she would start looking for it. But today and the day before I noticed that food could be thrown right near her and she wouldn't move. Is this because of the bedding?

Now, the coop is VERY ventalated because it was a rickety job. And the run has it also but thats outdoors. The babies have it in their rabbit hutch-turned coop too. None of them are having problems. Could it be the shavings or could it be something else? And if Pine is just as toxic, what other choices are there? I can't spend money on Aspen or Spruce or anything else...

 

[ivan3]

Sorry you're having problems. It is possible that you're birds were already stressed and this just exacerbated the situation (a stretch, but possible).

Don't concern yourself with the pine shavings! They are used throughout the commercial industry and are the bedding of choice in many labs.

I `worked' histology in psychopharm lab in college and we used nothing but pine shavings. The only things that contributed to early rat mortality (pups were safe): 1. males exceeding 240g wt. , females unsuccessful after three attempts at breeding, our harvesting brains for sectioning, staining, and examination. As funding was always an issue anything that contributed to unscheduled mortality was winnowed out ASAP.

Reread Patandchicken's post above. If you continue to have troubles you should post in emergencies (hope things start going better!).