Working herding dogs

[dainerra]

AKC registration isn't the downfall of dogs. Poor education of buyers and lack of research is. Yes, you will get breeders who are simply looking to win shows but you can also easily find dogs that are bred for their intended purpose.
AKC registration is simply a birth certificate.

 

[BrinaChick]

I have 1 ES and 3 Scotch Collies (Which are the base of all modern shepherds and collies) Both are great breeds.

Here's a great story of back when I was little. I have more if you want a good read check out my website onegoodfarmdog.wordpress.com

One fine Summer day mom was going to town and she left me in charge of my 3 younger siblings. I knew just what I wanted to do for fun, our neighbor had just put up a new cattle corral and to a kid it looked like an new shiny jungle gym, I was itching to climb on it.
As soon as mom's car disappeared over the 3rd hill I turned to my siblings and told them my plan for adventure. We headed down an old logging trail which we called the bike trail. Eva my personal dog came with us. I didn't ever go anywhere with out her. Riding my bike I sped ahead of everyone else and I saw that a few cows would have to be cleared out of the corral before we could play. I thought that I'd just go move them before the others caught up. Parking my bike at the open gate I jumped on the fence and hollered "He-ya! Git!" and the 2 Angus mother cows with calves trotted out leaving a yearling murry gray bull.
Just by the looks of him I could tell something was odd. I had seen rabies in movies but didn't expect to find it here. This bull was foaming at the mouth, his ears were droopy, his backside was caked with dung, and his eyes had a wild look, rolled up a bit. Yes I should've left the corral and got my siblings far away, but I was determined to climb on this new contraption, and I wasn't sure that he was rabid. Eva and the others were just coming down the last hill, feeling that it was my job to get the bull out I ran forward waving my arms and shouting. Rolling his eyes the bull charged and I only just lept out of his way in time. The bull turned on a dime and came at me again, this time I scrambled up the tall corral gate shaking from shock and fear. I held tight as the bull smashed into the panel I was sitting on. Glancing behind me I saw my siblings coming to my rescue "Stay back, he's rabid! " I screamed. At this moment Eva dashed in, driving the bull back. I was afraid she'd get hurt or even worse - Rabid! I called to Eva giving her the command to leave the bull, but she was not going to back down, thankfully Eva's stubborn ES side came out and she wasn't going to back down to leave me defenseless.
The bull flung himself at the metal bars crazed with rage. I jumped down on the other side and ran around to the opposite end opening a back gate wider so he could see his escape. But the bull didn't care to go, he only seemed to want to crush me. As I moved away from the gate he tried to follow, but Eva stopped him. I told Eva to herd him out and into another pasture. And Eva did just that expertly, dodging the swinging head, and striking hooves. She drove him a good way off before returning. GOOD GIRL! I shut the gates to the corral and our scare was soon put aside and we began to play and climb. Though the next time I saw the neighbor's come to feed their cattle I let them know of the rabid bull and I pointed him out, shortly after the bull was shot and disposed of. Brave, stubborn Eva had Saved my life, and my siblings! <3



The above picture is of my lovely hardworking pack. The story was about my personal dog Eva who is 2nd from the right with the large white blaze.

 

[eggbert420]

Herding breeds and livestock protection dogs are two completely different types of dogs and aren't usually interchangeable.

I have a Anatolian Sheppard that protects chickens and will herd cattle. He will go out get them and load them on a trailer.

 

[ShrekDawg]

I have 1 ES and 3 Scotch Collies (Which are the base of all modern shepherds and collies) Both are great breeds.

Here's a great story of back when I was little. I have more if you want a good read check out my website onegoodfarmdog.wordpress.com

One fine Summer day mom was going to town and she left me in charge of my 3 younger siblings. I knew just what I wanted to do for fun, our neighbor had just put up a new cattle corral and to a kid it looked like an new shiny jungle gym, I was itching to climb on it.
As soon as mom's car disappeared over the 3rd hill I turned to my siblings and told them my plan for adventure. We headed down an old logging trail which we called the bike trail. Eva my personal dog came with us. I didn't ever go anywhere with out her. Riding my bike I sped ahead of everyone else and I saw that a few cows would have to be cleared out of the corral before we could play. I thought that I'd just go move them before the others caught up. Parking my bike at the open gate I jumped on the fence and hollered "He-ya! Git!" and the 2 Angus mother cows with calves trotted out leaving a yearling murry gray bull.
Just by the looks of him I could tell something was odd. I had seen rabies in movies but didn't expect to find it here. This bull was foaming at the mouth, his ears were droopy, his backside was caked with dung, and his eyes had a wild look, rolled up a bit. Yes I should've left the corral and got my siblings far away, but I was determined to climb on this new contraption, and I wasn't sure that he was rabid. Eva and the others were just coming down the last hill, feeling that it was my job to get the bull out I ran forward waving my arms and shouting. Rolling his eyes the bull charged and I only just lept out of his way in time. The bull turned on a dime and came at me again, this time I scrambled up the tall corral gate shaking from shock and fear. I held tight as the bull smashed into the panel I was sitting on. Glancing behind me I saw my siblings coming to my rescue "Stay back, he's rabid! " I screamed. At this moment Eva dashed in, driving the bull back. I was afraid she'd get hurt or even worse - Rabid! I called to Eva giving her the command to leave the bull, but she was not going to back down, thankfully Eva's stubborn ES side came out and she wasn't going to back down to leave me defenseless.
The bull flung himself at the metal bars crazed with rage. I jumped down on the other side and ran around to the opposite end opening a back gate wider so he could see his escape. But the bull didn't care to go, he only seemed to want to crush me. As I moved away from the gate he tried to follow, but Eva stopped him. I told Eva to herd him out and into another pasture. And Eva did just that expertly, dodging the swinging head, and striking hooves. She drove him a good way off before returning. GOOD GIRL! I shut the gates to the corral and our scare was soon put aside and we began to play and climb. Though the next time I saw the neighbor's come to feed their cattle I let them know of the rabid bull and I pointed him out, shortly after the bull was shot and disposed of. Brave, stubborn Eva had Saved my life, and my siblings! <3



The above picture is of my lovely hardworking pack. The story was about my personal dog Eva who is 2nd from the right with the large white blaze.

Wow amazing story and beautiful dogs!

And are the others Scotch Collies? If so, they look very similar to ES? What's the difference? Just like politics or something separating them or are they much different? I read about scotch collies, some other type of collie i can't remember the name of, and ES I think, and it was saying they're all the old "farm dog" people remember or something? So i dont get the difference between them all?

And I don't mean this offensively or anything, I am genuinely curious if there is a difference and what the "old farm dog" is or was? I think I remember reading something about people trying to bring that dog back and they crossed with other breeds etc.

 

[ShrekDawg]

I have a Anatolian Sheppard that protects chickens and will herd cattle. He will go out get them and load them on a trailer.

View attachment 554707

Maybe the key is they need to herd what they don't protect? So like, you would never encourage them to herd/chase their chicken charges, it would be conflicting and confusing to them, but they don't protect the cows so it's okay in their mind?

 

[pennyJo1960]

I question your purpose for another dog? yours is large enough to protect are you wanting one that move the chickens around the yard? a fully trained herding dog would be the ticket then and very expensive

 

[ShrekDawg]

I would think another shepherd might work? Them and belgian shepherds (malinois, etc, 4 varieties) were originally bred for herding. Though obviously now they are most often used for police and military work, personal protection, and bite sports as well as other sports like agility or obedience, even therapy work, sooo you would have to find one bred specifically for herding rather than bite work or scent work, which might be difficult, or at least bred for obedience and a calm temperament so it's easy to train.

A more typical herding breed such as a Border Collie, Australian shepherd, or even Australian Cattle Dog/heeler, or a koolie might work too and would all be big enough to fight a predator. Especially with back up from the shepherd mix. However, they are also all very energetic and intelligent breeds so if you're just having it do occasional work, that might not work out too well. They need a job every single day.

I think the English Shepherd suggestion is an excellent one, or a Scotch Collie.

I wouldn't go with a smaller breed like a Corgi or anything but I'm sure you figured that out aha

 

[ShrekDawg]

Look up "English Shepherd" While, like any dog, they need training, they have all the right instincts for the job. They can both herd, guard and protect. The English Shepherd standard says one on one they should be able to take down a coyote. If you live where there are big predators you may need a pair. Yet they can be very gentle with day old chicks and even let the chickens peck at a bone they are gnawing.
LGD usually only guard, don't herd and a herding dog may not always protect but the English Shepherd is an all around farm dog with many uses. Once they know a job they can be trusted to do it on their own.
None of our poultry was ever taken or harmed on his watch. This was a picture of Josh taken when he was fifteen and still on the job. He died last fall right before his 16th birthday.

Thanks!now i just need to find a breeder who breeds working line dogs of that breed. Do you know any breeders? I'm sorry for your loss i bet he was a fantasic dog

ES are fairly rare but can be shipped. Josh came from Stony Creek English Shepherds in Michigan. I know there are California breeders and if you look up English Shepherd Rescue there are breeders who run that and can probably refer you to a breeder much closer to you.
These are the dogs I grew up with and they are fantastic and versatile.
You can also make contacts on the English Shepherd lists, [email protected]
These dogs (Thankfully) are not AKC registered and most are bred for work. They can be registered with UKC and the National English Shepherd Registery (NESR) and there is another legitimate breed organization
I believe Centorchid (Spelling on this may be slightly off but perhaps someone else can help out.) who is on this list has some so perhaps he can tell you where he got his. On this list you can look up English Shepherd as Poultry Guardian.
I know on the ES list one at least attacked a puma while others dispatch badgers, a pretty formidable foe.

Thanks so much!! Thank goodness they aren't akc registered and are still used as working dogs. I'll cantact the person if i can't find any other breeder. Thanks!

Your dog was beautiful! Sorry for your loss!

Do you think it matters much where you get an ES or are they all pretty much the same? Cause I noticed a lot of the stony creek ones do agility and/or don't work stock so i was wondering if you thought there was really a noticeable difference between him or their dogs and ones on farms or that claim to have "old" lines? Cause it can all be so confusing aha

And of course i know none of them are really the "same" seeing as they weren't bred for show and every dog is different but i hope you know what i mean haha

Their dogs are absolutely beautiful though!

And do you mean @centrarchid ??

 

[centrarchid]

I am the guy with the thread "English Shepherd as Poultry Guardian".
https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/english-shepherd-as-poultry-guardian.1008645/

I got mine firstly as a light duty guardian. The reputation for dual purpose (herding + guarding) or even tri-purpose (herding + guarding + hunting) is supported based on what I have seen. Mine even shepherds chickens back to pen for me. Chickens in my experience are not herding animals but can be so managed in small groups if not too flighty. They also track, bark tree on squirrels and point rabbits. Will stay on tree for at least 30 minutes.

When you compare lines that are show verses working, look at pedigree further back than one breeder and you will see a lot of overlap. Split between those breeding systems not yet complete.

Watch out for the high pressure / extremely opinionated dog folks pushing dogs as one extreme or another for herding or guardian or worthless. Pedigree of those parties likely to be dog peddler.

I have had a lot of dogs around poultry. From this point forward my intent is to stay with English Shepherds. Especially if a small herd of sheep and goats are to be acquired.

 

[ShrekDawg]

They seem like fantastic dogs! I have been reading some of your thread and just went back to the beginning but so far I'm only on page 9 lol

That makes sense that the breed wouldn't really be split off yet. I guess I just need to look for a breeder near Massachusetts. Although of course I'm not ready for one yet.

I think I need to get a job and move to my own place, or set up a tiny house type of thing on this property, before I can OR I will wait until after Gator, just because I think two dogs is a lot and I'm not sure Gator would like it. I couls handle two but it's just expensive and Gator is an attention hog LOL

But Gator is only 5 so.

So they're good around chickens? Do you think I could teach them to round up chickens or a chicken? Cause sometimes one gets loose and I have to run around like a crazy person trying to catch it lol