Yet another Horsie Q... Grain opinions?

[EweSheep]

I agree with the posts above.

I had Paso Finos, raise and train them. Since your guy is of the "hot variety" of the Colombian pepper kind LOL...those horses are naturally with alot of brio. Grain is awful for them but understand they need high quality grain to keep their performance up. I agree with adding fats to his diet.

Beet pulp is another one to consider. Ask your vet if he can have some. My Paso friend uses that on her "hard keepers" and they do not get grain at all. Grain is like a "high" drug for her horses so if she had to feed them anything, straight oats and good quality hay does the trick and they are not so "bombed".

When you change grain, be sure to go gradually even you will have to haul bags of that boarding stable feed to get to the adjustment. Senior feed is not "right" feed for him. Give him something of a high performance grain if you decide to go that route.

Don't let him get so obese, it is awful for them and their legs can not handle the extra weight. Lordy knows I have seen so many OBESE Paso Finos that looks so out of place! Particuarly the Marichal lines.....ugh!

All of my Pasos were on grass/clover/alfalfa mix but mostly grass and had to buy grain individually hand mix....one small coffee can of oats, half to 1/4 can of sweet feed (Omalene 300/broodmare/high performance) and 1/4 can or less of Calf Manna on their working days. When they are sitting around all winter, they don't get anything but 3/4 oats and 1/4 Calf Manna (or less) or straight up oats, they did well on it. I had a gelding that I had trouble maintaining weight on him and yep, he was 3/4 Colombian, had his teeth filed, and bump up his Calf Manna a bit and he did very well on it.

You and your vet, preferableably if you can find one that is very knowledgeable about nutrition, would be the best avenue to go. I remember taking vet classes and we were not well versed on nutrition but understand the protein, fats, carbo, etc. required for each horse's needs depending on what they are doing or performing. A non rideable breeding stallion needs a different ratio than the one that is rideable and breeding mares.

 

[SourRoses]

Quote:
Sorry.... I tried my best to be thorough with details but I missed this one. His teeth are good. He has had regular dental evaluations in his history paperwork.. as they were a bit concerned after they had gelded him, as a stud he had fallen into the habit of slamming his teeth into walls and such in fustration... the main reason they gelded him... That was nearly two years ago and gelding solved the problem.. And the dentist found his teeth to be in good shape in a recent pre-sale check-up (done by farm).

But he hasn't lost any weight with me. His weight is good. A little towards the fleshy side even. I only mentioned his past, which was the result of neglect from his original owners (the ones whom the people I bought him from, bought him from) because I thought the fact that it was hard for him to gain weight when it had been lost already was an important fact to enclose in my request for other peoples opinions on their favored brand of grain.

We will be mostly trail riding this winter.... but next spring I will be taking him into shows. He has a good show history, Reserve National Champion Pleasure and Reserve Champion Pleasure Spectrum x2 ... the real question is my show-worthiness

So he willl be working hard next year.


Haha Frostbite!

 

[SourRoses]

Thanks for your thoughts Ewe

So..... Say I did switch him to rice bran or beet pulp (which I soaked and fed aplenty at the breeding farm I worked at once upon a time

)
What kinds of supplements would I be adding to all that to get him the proper nutrition for a show horse?

I am the kind of person... that bought liquid vitamins for her fish. 3x a week I make up special vitamin soaked freeze dried brine shrimp for my fish.
I was seeking a complete grain because I would have no excuse to venture into the supplement aisle..... where my poor, aging (don't tell her I said so

) mother has to drag me away bodily from reading all the labels. But if I'm going there... what am I going there to get? I just read bad things about calfmanna being used on performance horses (endurance).

For some reason.... I just don't see the lady I'm boarding with taking it very well if I made off with some of her hay "for testing"

uhhhh.... So yeah I could do that when I move and if I get some from the supplier myself.... but that will be then... unless one of you wants to come over here for me to join me in a little hay sneaking operation.. and we might have to wear masks

 

[EweSheep]

Don't let him get burned out from shows...I had a Paso that was a Bella Forma top ten stallion but gelded after seeing his two sons he produced was awful. He was gelded around age six or seven and he didn't act like a stallion except for one thing, he loved to pace up and down on his turn out at the boarding stable I was at. He didnt do that when he was pastured so he was happier in pasture.

He also could fino fino but it was too much for him. He would literally explode in frustration that he DOES NOT want to fino fino. He does best on trail rides and loves it, more relaxing and "not cranking him up into doing the tighter gait" and making him nasty. The lady I sold him later said he was the best horse for trail rides and as long you do not "remind" him of the show things, he did fine. Just don't "crank" him up into that show mode. So be mindful when you ride your gelding about that. I am certain he will do it willingly as long it is not done every time without any relaxation but don't let him get sloppy LOL! Oh they can get away with collection if you let them get sloppy and boy, you have to "rein" them in and remind them to collect themselves so you don't get bumpy all over the road.

I am sure once he is in pasture, he will be a good boy and put on good flesh. Yes I agree with you, let him be a horse rather than an ornament to be taken out to ride and shut him up in the stall 23 hours of the day. I believe that applies to all horses as well.

 

[EweSheep]

Never had any issues with Calf manna. Been using them for the last 30 years on my animals and I didn't see any ill effects. However Calf Manna is like candy so in moderation is very imiportant.

I feed Calf Manna to my chickens as well as the Purina Flock Raiser. The shine, the quality and the well being of the chickens and the less poop details made it worthwhile. However not having horses anymore, hard to find a five to ten lb Calf Manna. Dogs like them too.

 

[bufforp89]

We are big fans of Sentinel. Very palatable, my horses will not eat pellets but they will eat this. I feed the Life Time Formula and the Senior Formula, they also have Performance type feed.

Keeps weight on my guys very well, my 26 y/o paint gelding who is a very hard keeper does especially well on the Senior Formula.

 

[SourRoses]

LOL!

Yeah... at the moment, my problem with Bear is him learning it's OK to relax every now and then. Hes sure got the brio... and he goes into riding with this going around and around in his head.. I can almost hear it.. "Work Work Work Work Work Work Work Work Work". We are working on walking. It's almost happening

Actually next time I take him out we are going to lunge for a good bit too. I think we will make it tradition

.

I personally want the trails more than the ring. The ring can be fun in moderation. A show every few months and just relax when you get home. But my thoughts on showing are mostly for him... because he Loves the ring... he thinks hes gorgeous (everywhere he goes).. and it would be a shame not to let him fill his potential.

It was so funny.. though not kinda funny... when I was riding him and Andrea was there.. and I stopped to pet him and tell him he was a good boy... she said, Oh, he hasn't ever gotten petted while riding before... He'll love you if you get him used to that spoiling. Just that the trainer always kept him working.

I know hes got some laziness in there somewhere.... I just have to find it

 

[zzGypsy]

ok, so if you're wanting to dig into the excruciating details of nutrition, you're going to need deeper advice than you'll probably be able to get here. tell your vet your purpose for asking about nutrition. tell him/her you want to become an expert and ask them to get you the most current info available to vets about ideal performance horse nutrition. read it, ask lots of questions, go on the internet.

analyze your hay (you don't need much, a few ounces should do... contact your local extension office or vet and see who they recomend for testing and ask them how much, and how to sample). BTW, you have to do this with every load, so buy in larger quantities if you can. even different fields on the same farm can have different nutritional value.

read and analyzie the labels on the feed bags, if you go on-line you can find analysis details for name brands. sites like ValleyVet.com have most of the labeling info online too, if it's something they sell. same for suplemental products.

what your feed program should look like is very individual, if you're really going to fine tune it. depends on your use, your horse, your hay, your local situation. changes over time as those things change as well.

things I have fed in the past with good success, *when* a horse needs it, are:

biotin/MSM/vit E for hooves (solved weak shelly hooves in the horse that had them, made no difference in the horses with good hooves.)

MegaMag - vitamin / mineral suplement, fed when feeding older hay, poorer hay, or when horses aren't showing prime condition. probably doesn't hurt to feed all the time, but... analyze your hay and see what they need and aren't getting. more is not always better.

vitamin e/selenium - when we were feeding hay grown in a selenium deficient region... not needed if you aren't as too much selenium can be a poison.

we always keep aboth a white salt block and a mineral block available and let them choose which they need. sometimes it's one, sometimes the other.

oil. we use whatever vege oil is cheapest at the time, bought in 5 gallon chubs. (don't use "winterized" oil, but any other liquid vege oil is fine.) we've got drafts now and we've got some issues with EPSM (or PPSM or PSM, depending on who you're talking to) that the oil really addresses, as well as adding calories. makes their coats look great too.

things we've used in the past that I don't think do much: RedCell. some of the joint/flexibility supplements.

remember that an unmet nutritional need may respond within a week or two of adding the correct suplement, but it's more likely to take months. with the oil and the EPSM, the average time to start to see results is 3-4 months, and 6-12 mo before you see the full benefit. so if you're making changes, consider how long it may take before you know if that change is effective.

there is at least one company that makes custom-mixed vitamin / mineral / supplement packs for folks who are fine tuning, or have multiple horses with very different needs. these packs aren't cheap, but they let you decide precisely what suplements they'll get each day, and exact dosages. can't remember the name off hand, but if you think it's a service you might use, I'll look it up.

you can also have feed custom milled for you, and you can decide precisely what you want in it, including some suplements. you have to order a minimum quantity, often 500lbs, but can be much more economical once you know the ration you really want. not so good if you change your mind part way through the batch.

nutrition is a fascinating field, and there are some interesting things to learn, like what vitamins a horse can make for itself, given the right components, and what they have to consume, as well as the effect various vitamins and minerals have on the body. if you're interested, take it on, learn everything. who knows, you may have a future as a consulting equine nutritionist...

 

[zzGypsy]

one more thing to consider - if you're working on cooling him a bit for that nice relaxed trail experience, take him off the carbos altogether - no grain, no carbo feeds, no molasses, no carrots, no apples, no sweet treats. if he needs the calories, replace it with fat (oil, rice bran).

some folks with hot breeds report that the change to their diet, over the course of 3-4 months cools the hyper energy in to a calmer mellower way of going.

carbos can be like feeding sugar to hyperactive kids - it cranks them up, removes their ability to focus and makes settling down impossible. one of my vets said it's like having their accellerator stuck to the floor all the time - you can use the clutch, or hold your foot on the brake, but the engine is reved to redline all the time.

switching them from sugar/carbo to fat metabolism actually makes a change in the way the muscles convert fuel to energy, this metabolism change process can take 3 - 6 months to complete, so if you're going to try this, give it enough time to work. we did this with one thoroughbred, saw a definite change in his overall demeanor, not that he lost his *fire* when roused, but he gained the ability to be calm, and the ability to come down off the ceiling more quickly. may or may not happen for your horse, and it may be more or less dramatic... but I've seen it work, and some folks swear by it.

horses don't need grain, but if working hard they do need extra calories. there are lots of ways that can be supplied. it's just that grain is all some folks know to do, and the don't realize the other issues that it brings.

 

[Jamie_Dog_Trainer]

I find this thread very interesting. I keep hearing people say "Your Vet should or does know about nutrition". Large animla specialty Vets must get more education in their selected animla's food health. Small animal Vets have very little knowledge about dog and cat food aside from what the Science Diet reps tell them.