ATTN. BREEDERS OF GAMEFOWL: Leghorn X Malay??

[GotGame]

Quote:
You are referencing "... friends who have had american game all their lives...." **All their lives**

Mixing game blood into a backyard type of chicken would be ridiculous (without disclosing). Period. Backyarders who have no experience with games who would have to deal with "man fighters" (as you call them) would be ridiculous. And that was my point. I don't want to have to cull these "man fighters." I don't know how often these "man fighters" jump out of the genetic woodpile, but they haven't all been bred out of the breed or you wouldn't even have to introduce them to the discussion. The game genetics would get into the Kraienkoppes. I don't see why backcrossing for 7 generations before releasing them for general consumption wouldn't take care of it, but then I'm no expert.

I want to be able to continue to run 3 or more Kraienkoppe roosters out free ranging with the Kraienkoppe hens. I want to be able to watch the hens introduce their chicks back into the flock as I now am. It's a delight. The Kraienkoppe roosters are gentle and welcoming. I don't have to separate anyone. They are like chickens in the wild. I don't want to buy some of these recreated Kraienkoppes 5 years down the line and have this idyllic situation ruined. Kraienkoppe may look gamey, but it was all bred out in the Netherlands and Germany. Many, not all, of the hens are flighty like Leghorns, but the Kraienkoppes have the nature of regular chickens.

Frankly, I don't care how people cross birds, but they shouldn't be recreating Kraienkoppes by using a game without disclosing that information to backyard chicken owners who have no idea how to deal with either game mixes or the "man fighters" that could easily pop up. Give the remakes a different name or something. Besides, wasn't it a Pheasant Malay instead of Malay that was used in the creation of the Kraienkoppe? Call the recreated birds some other name to avoid confusing the masses.

Maybe before you got the Kraienköppe breed you should have look at the breed history and done your homework on the breed. If you did the research then you would have found that the breed was primarily made up of Gamefowl breeds as with other large fowl breeds of chickens and of those large fowl that are not primarily made of Gamefowl breeds 90% of them will have at least one Gamefowl breed in them. As I posted back in post #5 the Kraienköppe was bred from Belgium Game, Malay, Old English Game and Twents/Drents landfowl.

The Kraienköppe was bred for cockfighting and at one time the breed was called Biethaon (biting fowl). When the breed became less interesting they decided to increase the egg production by crossing Leghorns into them.

Chris

Lol.....I repeat, the ignorance passed on as knowledge about game birds on here can be astounding....good post chris.

 

[gallorojo]

Yikes, this has gotten way out of hand.

I agree to some extent with all of you...

As for the pheasant malay, it's referenced in the link I provided to more information back on page 2. Here is a bit of it.

Everyone seems to agree that the Kraienkoppe’s foundation stock was the true pheasant Malay, a light multipurpose, should I say "landrace," from Malaysia and Indonesia. I’ve spoken with Craig Russell of the S.P.P.A., who is big fan of this variety, and he tells me that having traveled in that part of the world, he’s seen birds there which very much resemble the modern Kraienkoppe. Only in Asia, the cinnamon is the more common color.

I for one am not one to argue with Craig Russell. I only went with Malay in the original discussion due to the pheasant Malay not being available here, and the fact that the OP questioned using them., and, some references do point to their use in the breeds creation.

I will stand by the fact they( Malay) could improve some aspects, like helping boost size, and helping to eliminate pea combs and white ear lobes.

Here is a bit taken from an article Craig Russell wrote about Hamburgs, Redcaps, and Pheasant fowl-

The Pheasant Malay, also known as True Malay Game, Malay Pheasant Game and other names, is probably the Malay at the bottom of the Kraienkoppe pile. It is, in fact, the "Malay" used in the creation of the Rhode Island Red. Various writers have mentioned it as an influence on the Hamburg and even as one of the breeds used in the development of the Redcaps. While the Pheasant Malay seems to have reached Britain too late to be a foundation breed for any member of this group, I can't rule out some casual crossing. There may be a belief that the round comb once popular in Redcaps was related to the walnut comb of the Pheasant Malay. The low nature of walnut or cushion combs would make this unlikely. The Pheasant Malay is certainly an elegant, stylish fowl, but the style is distinctly different from that of the Hamburg group. I suspect that the major connection is in the use of the term Pheasant, which merely denoted a light, active bird.

I think we all seem to agree it is not a good idea to recreate the Kraeinkoppe since it's already here.

As far as I can see, the whole point of contention is the issue with "game" fowl being human agressive. They are not, and they should not be-peroid. The gamefowl people resent the idea that they are man aggressive because it is so common, so wrong, and so destructive.

Aside from that, It would be GREAT if we could move past this issue. The Kraienkoppe are NOT game now, so Eggs-quisite Eggs-cursion has every right to keep his/her flock that way if they wish. Details of how to move forward with breed preservation /improvement etc are always going to be contentious-however, lets look at the bright side here.

We have got some people on here NOW who are all very passionate about this great rare breed. You all had no idea the others existed or cared about the breed a few days ago. Why not come together for the good of the breed, start a thread on them, and discuss how to move forward from here. This breed needs publicity, some of good...

It also needs a way for you people to share notes, compare birds, share stock, etc. This COULD be the start of something POSITIVE. The arguing is not helping.
All out rare breeds need COOPERATION if they are going to make it.

Good luck to all with your birds!

 

[nicalandia]

Quote:
Oh, I really hope you don't use an Old English or an American Game.

Mixing in any bird with a game attitude would, I think, be a huge breeding mistake and be a disservice to the Kraienkoppe breed. Of course, you can breed your chickens in any way you want, but I would hope that you would warn buyers that you've added game to the Kraienkoppes you sell because, as it sits, Kraienkoppe roosters are known for their easy going temperment toward humans.

I would never want to add any of your birds to my flock if you were to add Old English or American Game to yours. I enjoy being able to walk amongst the Kraienkoppes with ease as I do my duties. I can't do that with my dual purpose layer flock that has three dual purpose roosters running with it. All of my Kraienkoppes free range with each other, even the cocks and cockerels. I don't think that would be possible if an American Game were bred into the breed, but I could be wrong since I'm not really up on game birds ... I've just seen videos of them strapped to barrels, which I don't have to do with Kraienkoppes and don't want to have to do if they get too much game blood in them.

I might offer you eggs or a cock, but no one's laying right now, not to mention that I'm busier than all get out. All the hens are either still brooding chicks or transitioning either back into broodiness or hopefully transitioning to laying after a move. Oh, and a few are molting, also. All cocks are are spoken for here. Besides, my group all originally came from a hatchery, which is usually undesirable. I only managed one selected breeding with a trio this summer. The others were flock breedings.

Again, I think it would be a shame to muddle up the Kraienkoppes with game blood. I guess, mixing in one game bird, then back crossing only the gentlest roosters for 7 generations might be acceptable.

That is ridiculous. Game Cocks that are man aggressive are culls. They would be culled quicker than an aggressive cochin, or about any other breed, as they could do serious damage to their handler if they were aggressive.

I am with you here GotGame.. why? here in Nicaragua the "Sport" of cockfighting is still alive and is popular, we "Nicaraguans" put knives on this birds to try to kill the opponent, so you better believe that the birds these serious breeders are handling are not aggressive to them...

a friend of mine that was a handler lost a thumb after trying to pick a stagg after a fight.. the owner of that bird went ahead and culled him and all of his offsprings..

 

[MysteryChicken]

Here's a Red/Red Wheaten Malay Pullet I have. Her tail is very different then my Blue Wheaten Malay pullets.

My Blue Wheaten Malay pullets for example of differences.

 

[nicalandia]

Who wakes up a 10+ year old thread where I posted?

 

[MysteryChicken]

Who wakes up a 10+ year old thread where I posted?

It was interesting, I just thought I'd share my Malays.

 

[nicalandia]

It was interesting, I just thought I'd share my Malays.

I wish I could have Malays, they are exceptional birds.

 

[nicalandia]

Any breeder's in your area?

No, I am not from the USA so I can't import them. I have Aseels, the rustic type

 

[MysteryChicken]

We firmly believe they sprang from the black Malay and golden spangled Hamburgh, with an after admixture of light brown or chocolate Malay blood.

Chocolate Malays? You mean Dun right? I got some from a breeder this year, one a cockerel is a Dun Partridge, & pullet a Dun Silver Laced.
Sold this dude recently. He was an extra.

Now to finish reading.

 

[Sic]

It's from a book from 1854, so yes I believe they are referencing chocolate brown (dun), and the dun variety was stated to be a mixture of black and white, i.e. what we now call blue. That cockerel is stunning by the way.

edit: here I found where Ferguson states the Malay color varieties (circa 1854):
1. White Malays
.2. Grey
3. Pied , including Piles and Piebald Malays.
4. Yellow Malay duckwing The nomination of " Duckwing " is erroneous, they being but a peculiar yellow, and devoid of the Duckwing
5. Chocolate , hitherto called " Dunders. " which is perfectly inapplicable, are so peculiarly uniform in their plumage that we are compelled to describe them separately, at the same time acknowledging their identity of blood with the " browns."
6. Brown-red,
7. Black-red
8. Blues or Dun Malay, and Red Dun
9. Black
10. Spangled Pheasant Malay, hitherto called " Pheasant Malay. "