Belgian Watermaal Bantams - a cousin fo d'Anvers/d'Uccles!(pic heavy)

[KristenG]

Wow JJ, thanks for keeping this thread going on here. Your Watermaal starts are looking pretty good!
Here is one of my 2013 pairs. Quail pullet followed by a Blue Quail cockerel

 

[Backwoods Bntms]

I found these when I got home from the show at Lucasville.

 

[Backwoods Bntms]

Good looking birds and a wealth of info. Thanks. All I have seen is show pictures from Europe (couldn't read none of the text). I didn't know they had a three spiked comb. Any tips on how to get the combs right.

jj

 

[KristenG]

Best tip is find a d'Anver rooster or hen with a double spiked comb and when using single combed bantams show favoritism towards single combs with side sprigs near the blade. The triple spiked gene seems to be linked to side sprigs and show tight affiliation with crests. Good luck!

 

[Backwoods Bntms]

I will be on the look out for side sprigs. I know some one with oegb's who has that problem.

jj

 

[flyingmonkeypoop]

Mind me asking what you used in addition to d'anvers to get these? I have a friend who crossed a polish bantam with a d'anver and got similar looking birds, even with the spiked comb because her polish had too many points. She just kept the hens around as broodies but knowing now what I know, I should have persued them

 

[KristenG]

Ask and you shall receive. I will answer your questions to the best of my knowledge.

Basically you can use anything with a crest and breed it to a d'Anver and eventually get what you want. Depending on what you start with will determine how long that road is going to be. Polish have a special advantage because not only are they clean legged (and many of them have slate shanks), but their v-shaped comb lends itself quite nicely to adding spikes on the back of a rose comb. I am not sure how the genes interact exactly, I just know that some people have used Polish and it worked out nicely for them with the triple spiked rose comb. The Polish do have a very large crest - too big for the Watermaals, but the F1 generation will not have the domed skull, which is a good thing. Watermaals are not supposed to have domed skulls. They are supposed to have something in between being a tassel/tuft and a crest. It is easier to downsize the crest, in my experience. As I said, I was aware of another breeder who opted for the Polish route who made good progress the first few generations. They were affiliated with the Watermaal club and since that went dormant I haven't heard from them really.

I personally used silkies and silkie mixes. Not today's silkies - the oldschool silkies that came from way back when the standard actually called for a triple spike rose comb. We are talking way back here. In fact, I don't even know which set of standards I read that out of - whether an old American or an old European standard. Yes, silkies used to have a standard that called for a triple spiked rose comb instead of a walnut comb (if I remember correctly there was a transitionary period where you could choose one or the other). At some point the triple spiked comb became undesirable in the eyes of the silkie breeders and was lost in favor of the walnut comb. However, many lines still carry this triple spike, especially hobby breeders with backyard silkies and silkie mixes. The drawbacks to using the silkies are numerous: black skin, polydactyl feet, big blocky type, feathered feet to name a few. It takes many, many backcrosses to d'Anvers if you choose to use the silkies - in the meantime that has a way of eliminating crests and even causing several birds to pop up with single spiked combs (unless you can find a double-spiked d'Anver comb). I was a bit fortunate in having a couple of d'Anvers with double spiked combs to help me along the way.

Alternatively you could use birds like the pyncheon, and probably even something like an Appenzeller Spitzhauben if that is what you have available to you. I have even heard of somebody wanting to use brabanters, although they are quite large so I imagine that individual really had their work cut out for them. So there you have it.

I am always surprised at how the birds that prove to be most useful seem to pop up in the strangest places.

 

[Backwoods Bntms]

I was out looking at my pyncheons today. They are not very good pyncheons, domed skulls, white legs and way to much white overall. But I did notice that the back of their comb is thickening up like there will be side sprigs on a few of them. They a young yet so it is hard to say. But I plan on having some F1's next year and go from there.

 

[KristenG]

Sounds promising. If you are so inclined, feel free to post pictures of your progress. I'd love to see how the strain progresses. I plan on getting some photos of some of the birds I hatched this year up, but it probably won't be until December when they've matured out (got a late start this year because of college).

 

[Backwoods Bntms]

Kristen, I am really looking forward to starting on my Watermaal project next year. Here is what I have to start with. They are not very good Pyncheons, white legs, way too white, some domed skulls.



It's hard to see in the picture but they do have a couple extra points at the back of their combs. Left over from the Polish in their ancestry?