BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[ejcrist]

I might be misremembering, but I think someone told me that the bees are interbreeding, so destroying all the Africanized bees isn't practical.

I read something along those lines too but I thought the resulting offspring were the same as the Africanized bees. I believe beekeepers tried to mix them to get the high honey production of the African strain but with reduced aggression like the European bees, and from what I remember reading the Africanized bees took over and retained their aggressiveness. I don't follow the news on the subject so I don't know if that's the latest info but that's what I recall reading anyway.

 

[ejcrist]

Amazing isn't it? It can be a bit of a pain to gather the data if you have your hands full - I have some chicks right now that I SHOULD have been weighing since week 1, but have decided to wait and weigh at week 5. But you learn so much more!!!

But one thing I learned in this recent group - beware of blindly following the data and looking at size as king of all, if you intend to also keep breeders and want flock leaders. Tiny cockerels should be culled, yes, but among big birds, a very small advantage in weight is useless if a cockerel ends up being an aggressive $^^#$^& that you can't use and don't want sons from. A large, quickly growing, but very slightly less heavy bird in adulthood may be worth his weight in gold. Case in point: Tank, AKA Mr. Family Man. BEST. ROOSTER. EVER. Adore this boy. I was on my knees 2.5 feet from him when I took this photo, messing with the bedding in his coop/territory - no problemo. His girls (five Speckled Sussex) ADORE him, and he adores them as well. And he apparently listened to my Womens Studies 101 for Cockerels lecture - he dances skillfully, but accepts "no" from the girls if they're not in the mood (though they are pretty small compared to him). They are not remotely overbred. This is such a successful family group that it delights me to just sit and watch them be together... (My Cream Legbar rooster Dumbledore is also fantastic, in a trio, so good to the girls. Snape the giant Naked Neck, the other hand, is not downright abusive, but IS a bit of a caveman...)




- Ant Farm

I'm not a fan of Naked Necks but I have to say he sure is a handsome fellow. He sure looks healthy - like his beautify comb and wattles.

 

[Fire Ant Farm]

Quote: Oh yes, Mr. Tankity-Tank-Tank is AWESOME. We often don't have time or space (or patience) to grow out all of our cockerels as long as we'd like to to see how they'll turn out, but I am so thankful that I have him. Amazing boy. I have several different hatching plans for him this fall - he'll be a busy boy.

- Ant Farm

 

[DesertChic]

I might be misremembering, but I think someone told me that the bees are interbreeding, so destroying all the Africanized bees isn't practical.

They are interbreeding, and according to the few bee keepers and bee removers I know in the area, ALL of our local bees have been Africanized to various degrees. There's just no getting past it now. The decision was made to let our more docile bees interbreed with the aggressive ones to tone down their bad attitudes over the long run, but it will take many generations to improve their genetics.

 

[AnthNDacula]

beware of blindly following the data and looking at size as king of all, if you intend to also keep breeders and w

Point taken. I won't cull particularly heavy at first because I'm trying to establish genetic depth in a fairly rare breed. I will pair up complimentary cockerels with pullets to balance traits. Once I establish three distinct lines I'll cull much more vigorously.

 

[gevshiba]

They are interbreeding, and according to the few bee keepers and bee removers I know in the area, ALL of our local bees have been Africanized to various degrees. There's just no getting past it now. The decision was made to let our more docile bees interbreed with the aggressive ones to tone down their bad attitudes over the long run, but it will take many generations to improve their genetics.

This is what I heard, exactly. Thank you.

 

[CanadianBuckeye]

Amazing isn't it? It can be a bit of a pain to gather the data if you have your hands full - I have some chicks right now that I SHOULD have been weighing since week 1, but have decided to wait and weigh at week 5. But you learn so much more!!!

But one thing I learned in this recent group - beware of blindly following the data and looking at size as king of all, if you intend to also keep breeders and want flock leaders. Tiny cockerels should be culled, yes, but among big birds, a very small advantage in weight is useless if a cockerel ends up being an aggressive $^^#$^& that you can't use and don't want sons from. A large, quickly growing, but very slightly less heavy bird in adulthood may be worth his weight in gold. Case in point: Tank, AKA Mr. Family Man. BEST. ROOSTER. EVER. Adore this boy. I was on my knees 2.5 feet from him when I took this photo, messing with the bedding in his coop/territory - no problemo. His girls (five Speckled Sussex) ADORE him, and he adores them as well. And he apparently listened to my Womens Studies 101 for Cockerels lecture - he dances skillfully, but accepts "no" from the girls if they're not in the mood (though they are pretty small compared to him). They are not remotely overbred. This is such a successful family group that it delights me to just sit and watch them be together... (My Cream Legbar rooster Dumbledore is also fantastic, in a trio, so good to the girls. Snape the giant Naked Neck, the other hand, is not downright abusive, but IS a bit of a caveman...)




- Ant Farm

Fire ant farm, you made a very good point. I believe that good temperament is a trait that should be selected for in a backyard chicken. That's what drew me to Buckeyes. But I found that nasty lurks in the genes of Buckeyes and have had to cull young chicks for aggression. Thankfully it seems that this trait shows up early. I won't tolerate a nasty hen either.

 

[NanaKat]

 
Welcome to the group!

If you were aiming purely for a heat-hardy egg producer, I would seriously recommended looking at the Mediterranean and Continental breeds. I'm particularly fond of Blue Andalusians and Hamburgs, but there's a ton of other breeds that are excellent layers that need a serious breeder to help them out.

Thanks for the info. As a matter of fact I'm also interested in the Mediterranean breeds and in particular the Blue Andalusian - I think they're a beautiful bird for sure. That's one of the reasons I didn't want to go without the White Leghorns which I read were excellent layers. If Blue Andalusians were as easy to get I would've got some of those too. Gosh if I keep thinking like this I'll be up to my eyeballs in chickens before long.

Might give thought to the Minorca.

Yeah, we love honey and I love to see my garden get pollinated, but there is absolutely no way I will ever get past my fear of bees to be able to keep them. I couple years back the local news reported on a missing hiker and his dog that had been found stung to death by thousands of bees. I just can't get past that. 

They are interbreeding, and according to the few bee keepers and bee removers I know in the area, ALL of our local bees have been Africanized to various degrees. There's just no getting past it now. The decision was made to let our more docile bees interbreed with the aggressive ones to tone down their bad attitudes over the long run, but it will take many generations to improve their genetics. 

We have had hives over the years...up to 6 at one time. Love the access to honey and the pollinators in the garden. Africanized bees have slowly made their way into Oklahoma.

 

[jbkirk]

I think that the closer that they get to the north the slower they will advance b/c they are native to africa, and thus not adapted quite as well to our climate as other bees.

I don't know anyone that raises them for honey either, and if there were they're probably not around any more. I read that there's an ongoing debate about whether or not African bees are actually a different species from European bees. I believe they're physically identical to European bees and the only difference is in their attitude. If that's true though I wonder how you could tell the difference without getting them rowled up. I think in the beginning someone imported them to South America for honey production as they're supposed to be prolific producers of honey. But then they inevitable got loose and made their way to North America leaving a trail of misery along the way. It's an interesting subject but from what I understand beekeepers in AZ mark their queens and check the hive frequently to ensure she's still there, and if they find she isn't they'll kill the queen and order a new one. I think if they're managed properly there's very little risk associated with them but I completely understand Desert Chic's feelings towards them - that's the same way my wife feels. Even though the risk is probably low there's is a risk nonetheless, unlike with the occasional chicken on a rampage.

Anyone that tells you that they are a different species,kind, or whatever you want to call it is telling you hogwash.(if they were different kinds they wouldn't be able to mix.) Now they Are Subspecies!!! IMO

 

[lpatelski]

Well, we spent most of the day trapped in our house because a massive swarm of Africanized bees took up residence in the tree outside our front door. It took the bee removal guy two trips to get rid of them. He said it was a swarm of over 20,000 bees, and they were NOT friendly.

I tip about Africanized bees...do not squish even one. If it is on you, walk into your house/car and close the door. When it stings or is squished it releases a pheromone that signals the rest of the bees to attack what ever it was stinging. They are attracted to dark spots. It is why you find dead horses with their nostrils and mouth filled with bees. They hate loud noises and vibration. It is why people who are on tractors or running lawn mowers get targeted...that and they have run over bees releasing pheromone.

The Africans made peace with them by using extreme caution. The difference between European and Africanized bees is almost indistinguishable. The darker bee is African, but even in European bees there are darker individuals. It is the behavior that sets them apart.