Color genetics thread.

[redrooster99]

Ok so I would like to learn about color genetics for mostly feathers right know. If anyone would also like to ask questions come on. Maybe the genetic experts will come on here. Also remember try to limit your questions to no more than 2. And thanks in advance.

My first question is can you make a standard size red Cochin.

 

[CanuckBock]

This is a good idea, genetics are so interesting! My question: what are some good books I should read to help me understand chicken genetics? It would need to be geared towards a beginner, all I know now is basic Mendelian genetics.

Multiple persons on this thread have asked about books...I posted this list in the BYC SOP section in this thread on the first page ( https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/939672/color-questions ) but will post some of it again, re-worked my reply with many additions and deletions) to fit this particular thread. Be warned that we here have our own ways of doing things and they happen to work for us.

Teach a man to sell fish and he eats chicken.​

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Some of the MOST basics of colour genetics should be learned first before one may fully begin to start guessing what colour genetics are in play in our beloved birds...I consider it a waste of efforts to ask a question like "What is Partridge?" when the person querying is not going to understand the little/big letters used to explain what colour pattern PARTRIDGE is let alone references to genetic potentials, feather texture, particular feather markings, growth cycles and speeds, seasonal influences, age, feed requirements, environment, etc. A foundation is a good place to begin any research and then building on that gets easier and easier. You do not have to learn genetics but it certainly makes breeding birds alot more progressive IMHO.

It is of little to no help to someone that cannot identify the pluses and minuses of the pattern when looking at the birds if they don't know, say what the "Partridge" pattern/colour is in the first place. If after studying the words in the Standard of Perfection (SOP) and looking at photos from sanctioned shows of good representations of the breeds/varieties, you still do not GET what the words and images are describing...then YOU (not your birds--we here are advocates of biosecure protocols...but then many are not--our opinions since I cannot speak for others' opinions) may go to sanctioned shows and walk the aisles L00King at the birds in the Partridge variety. If possible, one may sometimes politely monopolize the sanctioned judge's time and have them points some things out...ask the show secretary if that is possible. Sometimes you can tug on the ear of the exhibitors and they will help you out. Be polite and courteous...sometimes just offering to buy the person a coffee breaks the ice and away you go to learning some valuable things. You do not have to blow your biosecure status to heck going to shows if you fully sanitize your vehicle (something as simple as disinfecting the tires works well) and yourself (wear washable clothes & disinfect your footwear, clean self up completely before going out to do your evening chores when you return home). You may attend shows safely and not bring diseases home!

My suggestion is to get yourself educated on your interpretation of a breed and the variety you have interest in...long, long before you ever bring birds home. Getting birds is the easy part...having the proper set up, preparing and educating yourself; these are the more difficult processes. How in tarnation do you know what is a good or bad bird if you have not done your homework...at HOME first?

Understanding that simple things like feather textures come into play in varieties...a Partridge Silkie looks very little like a Partridge Chantecler. Why...because to see the markings on a Parti feather; the texture of the feather HAS to be sorta firm and slow grown to view the crisp expression. A fast growing, softish feather exhibits a fuzzy wuzzy display of the pencillings. Study the birds...know and understand the terminology, get a copy of the Standard of Perfection and READ the words that describe what "pencilling" is--compare that to what a "lace" is compare that to "multiple lacings"...and so your lovely adventures begin in the pursuit of educating yourself to be a positive addition to the Fancy. Talk the talk, walk the walk...join in the fun with feathers!

Be wary as "hobby" names from country to country and breed to breed are used interchangeably. To speak the same language one must often use "genetic" terms to describe the correct version of the feather patterns & colours when attempting to breed the varieties. Sometimes hobby names mean the complete opposite in other places and within breeds. What seems to work best is to use the short forms for genetic colours like Pg, eb, s"+". So you know, the plus sign subscript ("+") simply means it is wild type. Most often we expect a bird is wild type with the addition of mutations. We usually only mention the MUTATIONS in conversation...keeps it more concise and simple...simple is WAY good. Not saying you have to have any genetic learning to breed up nice birds...before Mendel the oldtimers did jest fine without all the mumbo jumbo genetics BUT since we now have this avenue to use...why not use it. I find it very useful and easy.

Keep an open mind and be willing to adapt. When you begin to study colour genetics (any genetics indeed), you will find out that the next research paper you read blows what you thought to be the gospel all to heck! Be prepared to UNlearn certain things...LMBO


Colour genetics is as easy as you want it to be...and as complex too. Nobody insists you learn genetics but by and far, sure makes life easier if you invest in yourself and do get a handle on it. My opinion of course!

Choose one of the following publications to purchase and consider it a gift to yourself to further YOUR learning...an investment in yourself in a very sensible good place to start:

- Genetics of Chicken Colours, By Sigrid Van Dort, David Hancox. Copyright 1990, ISBN 978 90 6674 404 2
- Creative Poultry Breeding, By W.C. Carefoot, MSc, PhD. Copyright 1985, Published by Veronica Mayhew in 2005
- 21st Century Poultry Breeding, By Grant Brereton, Copyright 2008, ISBN 97809 47870 577
- An Introduction to Color Forms of the Domestic Fowl, By Brian Reeder, Copyright 2006, ISBN 1 4259 0421 1

I own copies of all of these authors' publications and each one has bonuses and things to teach you about colours in your birds. I have other books listed on my website at the bottom of each species pages...lots of books...a big library and a big investment to help ME become worthy to work with the birds.

Dr. Carefoot's book walks one thru the being a hobbiest to having a more scientist type mind. Sigrid's books are fabulous and is another stepping stone to go thru. Keep you busy in some instances for YEARS as you read a page, RE-read a page and go back to it later and read the page to refresh your memory and advance your progress.

I have a pile of my fav book perched precariously on my desk beside my computer. Many are now dog eared and tattered...loved a tad too much I am afraid. But then, a book is meant to be READ, not left on a shelf in pristine condition!

Along with book learnin', you also need to roll up yer sleeves and get your hands dirty. Not much credibility in a person that is only book learning from studying theory. You need to apply this and test what the author's say in your own coops and yards. I have found out amazing things that concur and dispute these books. Discovered a whole new white in ducks...patterned white! What is in many of these books may suit you, or not. But begin to learn and then test the theory by doing it to prove it to yourself.

I have apprenticed for 30 years with basically MUTT poultry; they have taught me SO much from the very basics of keeping the birds alive so I can breed forward from them. It has been only in the last 15 years that I have purchased the Standard of Perfections (American Bantam Association-ABA and American Poultry Association-APA) and bothered to strive to recreate the worded descriptions of the breeds (shape) and varieties (colour patterns) in the flesh. Some of it I find reasonable & practical, some of it not...but that is for ME to decide...nobody else, eh?

After about ten years of work...not an uncommon time frame...here is a photo of a PAIR of Partridge Bantam Brahmas...got the females expressing the pattern in the first generation but being that gold is gender linked...it was a bit more time and breedings to see males pure for gold produced. A work in progress I expect another ten years might, might see more stable and acceptable.

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Now to roll those sleeves up higher, make the ground colour on the females a richer red pigment...clear the markings on the chests of the males by double mating for a line of exhibition males...keep an eye on the feather footing and away we continue to go...remembering to always select for better breed type and work on improving the variety.

A word of advice...the summary in order of breeding importance is this: disease resistance and vigour, production and fertility, temperament, then finally- visual phenotype (Brian Reeder mirrors my list completely!).

Phenotype or what the birds L00K like is the VERY last item of our concern...so asking what colour a bird is or how to make certain varieties, I expect it a given you have a line or strain of birds that you ADORE and have worked some years with getting to know what they throw. That you have bred plenty of birds from a select few parents...that one knows how to select and what to cull for and how to raise up the birds decently and safely. Having a coyote run thru your yard and grabbing your best bird is a given if you allow something as important as predator protection to take second seat to other priorities--haven't lost a bird since our first incident EVER here in 2007 when I got complacent about doing a nightly head count on the yard chickens and left a silly old hen out to be eaten by an owl. We all make errors...what we must do is learn to correct them.

Invest five generations into your strain so you yourself are the best judge of what you have and what you lack in the line. Preferences are not to breed pullets and cockerels but to wait at least until they are adults as by simply living that long at your house...they have proven the first three sets of criterion are met...eat the pullet eggs and harvest the cockerels that don't measure up...then go forward with cocks and hens you KNOW from having invested time in getting to know their charms and their pitfalls. You are able to judge what they look like because they have been with you thru day olds to moultings to adult plumage. You are not guessing what colour pattern they are because you can examine in hand what they are!

Why rush this along...is this NOT an enjoyable hobby one does to entertain oneself? Enjoy the challenges, learn from the mistakes; breath deeply and above all else, have good FUN!

Doggone & Chicken UP!

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm, Alberta, Canada

 

[Wappoke]

This one from the same black hamburg looked silver when it was born. Is that what the sex-linked silver is?

All the other posts did a good job of explaining things- but I want to expand on the other posts.

You are confusing dominant white with sex-linked silver. They are two completely different genes and are inherited in a different manner.

Dominant white is a gene that inhibits black in every feather on the bird. Dominant white will make a bird that is normally black- white. Dominant white does not work on red feathers, If you had a red bird, and you could add dominant white to the bird's genetic makeup, the bird would still be red. Dominant white only works to inhibit the black pigments, not red pigments. Also, dominant white is an autosomal gene and is found on an autosomal chromosome - that is a chromosome that does not determine sex. Autosomal genes are found in pairs or paired with another gene that does not cause the trait. Autosomal genes are inherited in a normal inheritance pattern- If a female has two dominant white genes ( a pair) - every chick will inherit a dominant white gene. If a female carries one dominant white gene, some of the chicks will inherit a dominant white gene and the others will inherit a non-dominant white gene ( the gene paired with dominant white). The same goes for the father.

Sometimes when a bird inherits only one dominant white gene- some of the black pigment will not be inhibited and a bird will show black patches or even black feathers.

Black rooster x dominant white hen ( two dominant white genes)= all white offspring.

Black rooster x dominant white hen (one dominant white gene)= some white offspring and some black offspring


Silver ( makes a bird silver or white) and gold ( makes a bird red or buff)are both found at the same location on a Z sex chromosome. That is why they are called sex linked genes -they are linked to the Z sex chromosome. In chickens, the male has two Z chromosomes and the female is different she carries a W sex chromosome and a Z chromosome. For simplicity, lets say the W chromosome has no part in inheritance of color- so just forget the W chromosome. We only have to deal with Z chromosomes. A male (has two Z chromosomes) can have two silver genes- one silver gene on each Z chromosome- the female only has one Z chromosome so she can only carry one silver. Males can also have two gold genes ( one gold gene on each Z) which means they do not carry any silver genes. The silver and gold genes are located in the same spot on a Z chromosome, One and only one gene can occupy the spot- so a single Z chromosome carries either gold or silver. Since males have two Z's they can also carry one silver and one gold gene. Females can only carry one sex-linked gene so they carry either gold or silver-not both.

If a male carries two silver genes- he will show silver in a zonal pattern. That is the silver will only show up on certain areas of his body. The silver gene does not affect every feather on the body of the bird- dominant white will effect every black feather on the body of the bird.

If a female carries the silver gene (she can only carry one)- she will show some silver in her feathers. It will be zonal- usually the neck hackles.

Males can carry one silver and one gold- some silver genes will allow some red to show ( caused by the gold gene) in a bird while other silver genes will not. It is my understanding that every silver gene is not the same in every bird. Some are structured differently than others and this will allow for some red to show, So for simplicity, let's say if a male has a silver gene and a gold gene- the male will be silver in certain areas of his body. The hackles are a good example of this zonal color- the hackles of the male will be silver or white. In silver females the silver color will also be zonal- they usually show while in their hackles. There are other areas that can show silver but to keep things simple- the explanation will stop with the example given.Google and find a picture of a silver duck wing and you can see the other areas that can be silver.

There are other zones and with certain gene combinations that will cause much more silver to show on a bird- but we will not discuss this because it will make things more confusing. For this discussion- dominant white can make a whole bird white and silver only adds white to certain areas of the body( for example the hackles). There also genes that can cover the silver with black so the silver does not show.




Black male (silver but does not show) x golden cuckoo female = barred black males that may show some silver in the hackles and black females ( silver under black)

dominant white male (two dominant white genes and carries silver) x golden cuckoo female = all dominant white birds and any silver that does show will blend with the white. If the birds are gold the red will show in the hackles. This is why I said you want to breed your whites to birds that carry silver-Even if the silver does not show in the hackles ( black or barred birds).

golden cuckoo male ( he has two gold genes)x dominant white female = all dominant white birds but the gold inherited from the male will cause red to show in zones on the male and some of female offspring. This is what is happrning with your whites. Your whites are inheriting gold from a male or female.

There are other reasons for red to show but to discuss that would make things more difficult.

 

[The Moonshiner]

​Ha, chickens are like a box of chocolates in the fact you never know what you are going to get! Hidden traits can always arise from within. If you have a box of crayons and blend 2 or 3 different colors together, (shading), the outcome generally produces a color within the spectrum, but not always! We know oil and water don't mix well and they separate. Colors when mixed can separate also and give a splash or unknown effect such as barring or something totally different.. Some color transfers are dominant from the rooster, (such as barring effect), transferring to the hens.  Working with solid colors can be more predictable to the outcome. Confused? There are genetic guidelines or color equations describing what should be the outcome by percentage of predictability. Black to black = 100% black and so on. It is all formulated as a standard of practice. But! It can take multiple generations to get a color to start breeding true within a new color strain. It is easier to go to a paint store and look and hundreds of color charts and choose which one you like. They mix the paint dye additives and you have the perfect shade and color you want!
  Crossbreeding a specific breed of 2 different colors can awe you with an oddball hatch color you fall in love with and want more of the same! You are gold mining and struck it rich! Its rare and you have an itch for more. Got to love that yellow pigment! Keep digging.

Confused? Yes
Theres a method to the mayhem in the world of breeding.
Of course if youre breeding birds that you have no idea of their genetic makeup then youre not going to know what youll get.
If youre breeding birds that you know then you know exactly what youll get.
Breeding birds isnt anything like crayons. Its not simple blending colors. Cant breed a blue rooster to a red hen and get purple chicks.
Oil and water? Not sure about any of this blending colors or colors separating. Splash isnt from colors separating and dont just pop up out of anywhere. It comes from two genes for blue. Blue shows so if youre not breeding blue chickens then it isnt likely to be popping up.
Same with barred. Barred shows so if youre breeding a barred bird it is going to show up in chicks if youre not breeding barred it doesnt pop up out of nowheres in chicks.
Dont know about it being rooster dominate or what you mean.
It is a sex link gene as are some other genes so roosters have two copies while hens can only have one.
Barring is a dominate gene but its dominate for hens too. Black rooster over barred hens gives you barred male and black female offspring.
Solid colors are no more predictable really then patterns. It doesnt get more simple as far as a color then solid black or solid white but both of those can carry just about anything unseen. If you dont know their breeding and whats behind them then they can cause more issues then a complex looking patterned bird.
If you know the genes your birds carry you will know what to expect. Some patterns/colors are more complex then others so more choices in how their genes will connect and the outcome of the chicks.
Other colors are simple and you will have few choices of what the chicks will be. BBS i think is great for starting out in breeding.
It also all depends on what genes are dominate and what ones are recessive in your birds.
Recessive ones are what causes things to pop up if they do. Some genes are dominate but can be hidden by other genes. Such as the mentioned splash and barring. They can both be hidden on a white bird. You just have to break down what genes are in your birds that you are breeding.
Theres not a lot of charts because theres so many genes in chickens it would be too much for a cart. Check out the chicken calculator.
Just like your chart said black x black = 100% black. Thats only for BBS breeding and only concerning those genes. Theres been tons of times ive bred black to black and got other colors. In lavender breeding lavender is recessive so you can have two black chickens that both carry lavender and end up with 25% lavender and 75% black. You can split black with a lot of things since black is so dominate to others. Black can carry recessive colors like lavender. Sex link colors like chocolate. Other patterns like wheaten or wild type and combinations of more then one.
Understanding chicken breeding as a whole and every aspect of it can seem impossible and even the veteran breeders will never know everything thing but its not like a box of chocolates.
If someone wants to try to figure it out start small and build up from the basics. Pick a breed or a bird and break it down genetically. Understand what makes it look the way it does. What is dominate and what is recessive. Learn in small steps instead of looking at it as so complicated.

 

[keesmom]

Alright, thanks! Yah his mother was a barred Cochin (I guess ) but people on here said the boys were supposed to be all barred with orange streaks. Or black with a white spot on top of their head when they were chicks and he didn't. So his mom has a hidden silver gene or something?

He has the Columbian gene. Part of what it does is to restrict black to the outer edges of the bird, and prevents it in the breast, wingbow, back and shoulders. The barring can't be seen there because of that gene. Look at Delawares.

Buff Brahmas are buff Columbian. Likely where it came from.

Silver and gold genes are completely separate.

 

[WVduckchick]

With a silver rooster, the offspring will all be silver, but the males from the gold hen can carry gold gene and may (or may not) show some red leakage.

 

[jane s chickens]

Laurel, i wanted to tell u that i have a beautiful black/gold birchen roo from those eggs u shipped me last year.

 

[The Moonshiner]

So I have a male chick that is Silver/Gold (Silver Roo/Gold Hen). I breed him to a Gold Hen and he has 50% chance for Gold Pullets? Just checking that I understand correctly. Fingers crossed. Thank you!

That is correct. And he would have 50% chance for gold pullets if he was bred to a silver hen also.

 

[junebuggena]

I haven't read through this 141 page thread so my question may have been answered already and I just didn't see it.

I have 9 Light Brahma pullets and 1 Light Brahma cock. I also bought 2 Buff Brahama straight run chicks at the same time. The chicks are just over 3 1/2 months old now. I could tell which Light was the rooster weeks ago when his wattles started growing longer and the wattles and come became more of a bright red that the others. I also noticed that his tail feathers had a green iridescence to them. I thought that both of the Buffs looked like pullets.

I give them a close look today and one of the Buffs has a bit of the green iridescence to it's tail feathers and although it doesn't have larger wattles, it's comb seems to be a bit redder and better developed.

Are the different colors of Brahmas's considered to be different varieties or different breeds? One day the hens will lay, and later one day one will go broody and one day even later I hope have chicks. Will the little chickies be mutts or they they be a variety of two varieties? Is it a good idea to let them interbreed? If someone wanted some chicks do I just call them a Brahma cross?

Each variety was derived from different lineage, but selected to be the same in terms of conformation. Technically, each variety of any breed, is a separate breed. But with chickens, breed is not solely determined by parentage. If an individual meets the breed standard for a particular breed, including coloration, it is that breed.
Depends. The male offspring from the Light to Buff pairings will have red/gold leakage, so they won't meet the breed standard and thus cannot be considered Brahmas of any variety. The female offspring will meet the breed standard for Light Brahmas, and thus can be considered Light Brahmas.
There is no reason why you can't cross the two varieties, if you just want to expand your flock a bit. When selling chicks, do so with complete disclosure and the buyer's full awareness that you have crossed varieties.

 

[Xiao Casa]

This is a good idea, genetics are so interesting! My question: what are some good books I should read to help me understand chicken genetics? It would need to be geared towards a beginner, all I know now is basic Mendelian genetics.