Cookie Tin water heater

[Bear Foot Farm]

Quote: Heat RISES
Your heat source needs to be BELOW the nipples, or you'll need to use a normal waterer in Winter
.

 

[WinterLadyAK]

Heat RISES
Your heat source needs to be BELOW the nipples, or you'll need to use a normal waterer in Winter
.

Hmmm.... How would the heat source be below the nipples?

 

[TNBEARCHICK]

This question came up before and when it did I took two empty cookie tins I had in the house, one the size of a salad plate, the other a dinner plate and stood on them (one at a time) and both held my weight, (which I assure you is more then a 5 gal bucket of water). I only stood for a minute or so, so not sure about long term.

Yeah I could definitely stress test it for weight capacity.

 

[jmagill]

Not true at all. My aquarium heater is in the water and works great.

 

[Hooligans7]

Nitpicking your design. (and i'm in Texas so I have only needed to keep water from freezing once since I got chickens in 2010.)
Wood near heat is a fire hazard, while metal does not burn.
Does cement board conduct heat? I'm thinking maybe but it would take a much larger heating element actually embedded in the cement board (how heated flooring is done, waterbed style heater with concrete poured under and over it.)

I would not want the electric bill for an effective cement board heater, while a small amount of electrical tape and maybe a bit of silicone could virtually eliminate any hen-zapping tendencies of the original cookie tin design. (I picked up tins at Goodwill for $1 each after my last big freeze in winter 2010/2011... Haven't built the warmer because I'm still waiting for the next freeze to be forecast.)

The interior of the wood frame is lined with cement board, which is fireproof, and the auto-ignition point of dry pine is very hot -- 800 F, which is 300 degrees hotter than a residential oven can achieve. In contrast, a 40-watt incandescent bulb is only about 35% efficient for light output, which means 65% of every watt consumed is "wasted" as heat (but that's why we use them for this application). In terms of heat output: 40W X .65 = 26 Watts of heat (or 26 Joules per second), which will get nowhere near 800 F.

Cement board conducts heat, and also has thermal mass, which increases with thickness. Thermal mass is the ability of a material to absorb and store heat, which has a stabilizing effect on ambient temperature swings. This property is less important in this application than for an inhabited dwelling, such as in the case of radiant floor heat. The cement board I'm using is only 1/4 inch thick, so it will warm "gently" and cool "gently," but will become as hot as any other material with the same heat source.

Our purpose here is to prevent ice from forming, and I don't want to melt my plastic waterer, so I'm starting with a 25-Watt bulb (16.25 Watts of heat), which may be excessive with my design because of its wood frame. The wood frame acts as an effective insulator, so the heat dissipation from the bulb will be primarily through the top and bottom panels, significantly minimizing lateral heat loss. The electric bill will never be more than the total watts consumed by the bulb when it is switched on, which will be controlled by a Thermo-cube. With my design, a smaller bulb can be as effective at heating the desired area (the top) as a larger bulb that would be required in a less thermally efficient enclosure. A cookie tin radiates heat in every direction, so a higher-Wattage bulb is required to provide the same amount of heat to the waterer, which results in a higher electric bill for the cookie tin heater.

 

[BMaverick]

... Our purpose here is to prevent ice from forming, and I don't want to melt my plastic waterer, so I'm starting with a 25-Watt bulb (16.25 Watts of heat), which may be excessive with my design because of its wood frame. The wood frame acts as an effective insulator, so the heat dissipation from the bulb will be primarily through the top and bottom panels, significantly minimizing lateral heat loss.

Sweet. Both of our minds understand that the wood frame is a great insulator. ...even with my device using automotive hardware and 12VDC, the wood works very well.

 

[Bear Foot Farm]

Quote: A simple "cookie tin" heater will accomplish that.
It's just a normal light bulb ( NOT a "heat lamp) in a box, which in your case would have to be waterproof

One thing that would work well would be a 12 X 12 ceramic tile on top of a fully enclosed container of some sort.
Just use your imagination, since there's no "right" or "wrong" way to build one, other than it shouldn't be cardboard, or plastic that is thin enough to melt.

 

[Hooligans7]

Sweet. Both of our minds understand that the wood frame is a great insulator. ...even with my device using automotive hardware and 12VDC, the wood works very well.

Yes, and with the high auto-ignition point of wood combined with a lack of oxygen supply in the enclosure, even if the surfaces somehow reached 800F, a fire could not be sustained. The surface would likely char and that would be the end of it. I used the cement board to provide an extra safety margin with my large and hot 120V bulbs, but it was probably overkill.

I am wondering, however, if your 12V automotive bulbs will be warm enough, but that depends on your lowest ambient temps. Does it get down to 0F where your are?

 

[WinterLadyAK]

A simple "cookie tin" heater will accomplish that.
It's just a normal light bulb ( NOT a "heat lamp) in a box, which in your case would have to be waterproof

One thing that would work well would be a 12 X 12 ceramic tile on top of a fully enclosed container of some sort.
Just use your imagination, since there's no "right" or "wrong" way to build one, other than it shouldn't be cardboard, or plastic that is thin enough to melt.

OK, so I made the cookie tin heater and have been using that (nipple bucket currently not in use) but still cannot visualize what you're suggesting. You're suggesting I have the cookie tin heater underneath the nipples, like where they chickens would be walking on it?

[______] This is the bucket that has the bucket heater at the bottom and the nipples coming out of the bottom
| | These are the nipples hanging down

R R These are my chickens, with their heads up to get water from the nipples
[---------------] This is currently something they stand on to get to the water, you are suggesting I put the heat source here and hope that over the 10" or so between this and the nipples that some of the heat will radiate upwards to defrost the nipples but not interfere with the chickens standing on it?

 

[Hooligans7]

OK, so I made the cookie tin heater and have been using that (nipple bucket currently not in use) but still cannot visualize what you're suggesting. You're suggesting I have the cookie tin heater underneath the nipples, like where they chickens would be walking on it?

[______] This is the bucket that has the bucket heater at the bottom and the nipples coming out of the bottom
| | These are the nipples hanging down

R R These are my chickens, with their heads up to get water from the nipples
[---------------] This is currently something they stand on to get to the water, you are suggesting I put the heat source here and hope that over the 10" or so between this and the nipples that some of the heat will radiate upwards to defrost the nipples but not interfere with the chickens standing on it?

I, too, have a bucket waterer with "broiler" nipples on the bottom. The ones I use have stainless steel plungers (valves) that move up and down. Because they are steel, they will conduct heat as well as give up heat, which yours are doing by freezing up.

Just my opinion, but I think you should abandon the idea of attempting to heat the bucket nipples from below with a direct radiant heat source: If it's hot enough to be effective, it will be too hot for your chickens and therefore a hazard. The only safe approach would be to blow warm air through a duct and grate from below the floor, which could be complicated and expensive. You might as well install a central heating system in the coop and be done with it.

Therefore, if you can make the water warmer (by the addition of an aquarium heater, for example) or retain more of its heat by adding insulation around and on top of the bucket, then the water will lose less heat through the bucket sides and top, and the plungers will stay warmer (through conduction) with a reduced likelihood of freezing. What say you about that?