CSU - Chicken State University- Large Fowl SOP

[Chris09]

Thank you Chris, that's even better; now look at that male, is he dark? No. And his consort, would anyone describe her as being dark? Why, no.

The reason Dominique fanciers still use the Schilling illustration is that it gives us an ideal bird to strive for. Those old breeders *knew* their birds had the potential to be better than even these two first place birds, that's why they had those photos 'tweaked' to reflect the perfect male and female as they imagined them, rather than simply using these photos for the standard.

Quote: Yes the bird does look light but so does other things in that picture, the is do to the exposure of the camera and poor lighting.

Quote: The thing that we have to remember is that Shilling was a artist, he was not a master breeder of ever bird he did a picture of.
His pictures are only his interpretation of what he thinks the Standard reads.

It has been said time and time again on here and other sties that we should not breed to the picture in the standard but should breed to the illustrations that is written in the standard.


Chris

 

[WallTenters]

There could be some to do with the background of the fowl as in what else in in the fowl.
(are the E^R or E based do they have Dilution Gene/s)

There are a number of reasons that I like a darker bird in the breeding pen, one of them go's back to knowing that a Barred bird with out the Barring gene is Black another is that some of the best looking Barred/Cuckoo bird were bred back to Black at one time.

Chris

Chris just because they are bred back to black does not mean they have to have a dark cast to that. If you breed a cuckoo male on black hens you'll get male and female offspring with only one barring gene, the females may look a touch smutty the first generation, the males will look very dark, but if you cross those F1 offspring together you'll get 1/2 single barred males but the other half of the male offspring will be double barred and look like normal cuckoo males. In fact sometimes it really cleans up the barring to bring in different blood now and then.

Chris,would you mind posting any photos of your breeding pens, male and females? Would like to see how dark you select your males to be and what the resulting offspring look like, if you've got any photos of them.

 

[catdaddyfro]

Yes the bird does look light but so does other things in that picture, the is do to the exposure of the camera and poor lighting.

The thing that we have to remember is that Shilling was a artist, he was not a master breeder of ever bird he did a picture of.
His pictures are only his interpretation of what he thinks the Standard reads.

It has been said time and time again on here and other sties that we should not breed to the picture in the standard but should breed to the illustrations that is written in the standard.


Chris

I agree,

Jeff

 

[Chris09]

Quote: When I get out to the other farm I'll try to get some pictures for you.
There one of my "side breeds" like my American Game and I don't get a lot of pictures of them like I do my Reds.

Chris

 

[Delight in Dominiques]

The thing that we have to remember is that Shilling was a artist, he was not a master breeder of ever bird he did a picture of.
His pictures are only his interpretation of what he thinks the Standard reads.

It has been said time and time again on here and other sties that we should not breed to the picture in the standard but should breed to the illustrations that is written in the standard.


Chris



Very well put. To add the Standard was developed to preserve the type and qualities of this old bird. That being said many enthusiast of the Dom breed today still strive for the old look of the pattern from the Carter Hen bird used for the standard. "The wide light-colored bars of the plumage between the second dark bars and the distinct bars that extend well across the rounded tips and give the much desired "lace-like" effect, are typical in this hen and worthy to continue the fashion of the genuine old time Dominique that experienced fanciers of this true American race are bent on preserving." F.L Sewell

Pattern . excellence to be determined by distinct contrast. Color to stop short of positive black and white. To breed the birds to a "lighter'' color, pattern determines the lightness in the cuckoo pattern.achieved by the wider light bars. Barring to the web and under color slate.

As years go on this pattern will be difficult to keep with in the guidelines of the standard. With a watchful eye and proper selection hopefully the pattern can be preserved for others to enjoy. I am not a genetic expert on these birds but I remember a correspondence years ago with a well known thread starter;

You know in your minds eye what you want in this bird. Then as you hatch and raise these birds from these different strains look for the old Dominique. The blood is there. Someone screwed them up by crossing barred large fowl on them but if you go looking for the type of this small bird I am sure the bird that is in this germ plasma will show up.

Below are some pictures of the "lace-like' effect on my Dominique hen.



Just to the left side of the picture, you can see a solid black feather in her right wing bow.

 

[buffalogal]

Quote: Actually, nothing in either photo looks overexposed, and if the lighting was poor in the picture of the pullet, it would mean she was actually lighter, not darker.

It seems like you're trying to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

The thing we don't want to forget about the Shilling pictures is that his "interpretation" was submitted for the approval to the best breeders of the day and that he was open to suggestions to make changes and corrections, not to his own liking, but in accordance to how those breeders wanted the birds to look. The resulting images absolutely were NOT just "his interpretation of what he thinks the Standard reads." Thanks to the input from the breeders, and his willingness to listen rather than fancy himself 'artistic' enough to do his own thing and call it a day, those retouched pictures were THE embodiment of a Dominique for about 75 years. (until someone decided to print a color SoP and for the sake of continuity hired a well meaning artist who was sadly not up to the task of accurately rendering ALL the breeds)

The point is we are talking about preserving the Dominique as it has been handed to us from the past rather than creating a modern "interpretation" to suit whatever happens to be hatching in the incubator. While we might have our own ideas about the "illustration that is written in the standard", i don't see much point in reinventing the wheel as far as having an actual image of an ideal bird when that has already been so expertly done.

 

[Chris09]

Actually, nothing in either photo looks overexposed, and if the lighting was poor in the picture of the pullet, it would mean she was actually lighter, not darker.

If you look at the picture of the male bird you will see that the background, and the cloth under the birds feet is much lighter than that of the hens picture also if you look at the male birds head it is much clearer/brighter than that of the hens also. Looks like a flash may have been used on the male bird and not the hen which could with the wrong exposure make the bird lighter than it really is.
But we all have our own thoughts.



Quote: If this was true then why do we need to change artists in the SOP and the look of the bird, also why do so many poultry judges and breeders tell us not to go by the picture and to go by the text that is in the standard? If it is the "perfect" bird then we have no need to change the drawings then.


Chris

 

[Delight in Dominiques]

I have seen many discussions of the discontent of the current standard artistic representation, I am sure the Dom club is not the only breed club that have made their voices heard. The APA has done a wonderful job with the SOP and there will always be grumbling with just about everything out there. Just as no bird is perfect the APA is always listening and making improvements along the way by the fanciers that support the hobby.

 

[fowlman01]

I agree,

Jeff

It even states that in the SOP. Do not breed to the illustration....use it only as a place to start. That is not an exact quote, but that is what is meant by the statement.

Walt

 

[buffalogal]

The Dominique breeders were perfectly happy with the Shilling for 75 years. They were changed not because suddenly Dominiques resembled a child's coloring book drawing, but because the decision was made to print a color version of the SoP and a single artist was selected to paint all the breeds. The resulting illustration was that particular artist's interpretation of the standard, not the breeders.