CSU - Chicken State University- Large Fowl SOP

[WallTenters]

Chris I don't understand and maybe I'm reading your comments wrong. Appreciate all the discussion but too much for me to take in all at once on one subject need some time to absorb it!

I wanted to bring up one final point though on the color of the male. When you said there was no mention of the lighter bars being wider in the standard my first thought was "wasn't there" but I looked and sure enough you're right. Perhaps my recollection was coming instead from this letter that was the suggested standard from those Dominique breeders that wished the standard to be revised away from the coarse, evenly barred birds around the turn of the 20th century...


... Plumage slate, feathers in all sections of the fowl crossed throughout their entire length by irregular dark and light bands, that are never black nor white; each feather tipped with dark, free from shafting, brownish tinge or metallic sheen; the light bands being wider than the dark and so arranged as to produce a surface color of an even lace-like appearance throughout the male, and a slightly coarser dappled appearance in the female; ...

And in the official document later sent in they specifically stated that a single mating was only needed to produce the desired colors.


Someone mentioned not breeding to what was hatching, I agree, but I also recognize that this breed like so many others has changed over its history. For me, these suggestions by the breeders of the early 1900s will be the most accurate description of what I think of when I think of what a beautiful pair of Dominiques would look like. The changes between the suggestion and the printed standard may seem so slight that no issue might arise unless a detailed discussion such as this one comes up on a showroom floor . I'd rather lose the placing to a darker male and have the bird closer to what those breeders described instead of a ribbon any day of the week and twice on Sundays if it came down to that.

 

[WallTenters]

The thing that we have to remember is that Shilling was a artist, he was not a master breeder of ever bird he did a picture of.
His pictures are only his interpretation of what he thinks the Standard reads.

It has been said time and time again on here and other sties that we should not breed to the picture in the standard but should breed to the illustrations that is written in the standard.


Chris



Very well put. To add the Standard was developed to preserve the type and qualities of this old bird. That being said many enthusiast of the Dom breed today still strive for the old look of the pattern from the Carter Hen bird used for the standard. "The wide light-colored bars of the plumage between the second dark bars and the distinct bars that extend well across the rounded tips and give the much desired "lace-like" effect, are typical in this hen and worthy to continue the fashion of the genuine old time Dominique that experienced fanciers of this true American race are bent on preserving." F.L Sewell

Pattern . excellence to be determined by distinct contrast. Color to stop short of positive black and white. To breed the birds to a "lighter'' color, pattern determines the lightness in the cuckoo pattern.achieved by the wider light bars. Barring to the web and under color slate.

As years go on this pattern will be difficult to keep with in the guidelines of the standard. With a watchful eye and proper selection hopefully the pattern can be preserved for others to enjoy. I am not a genetic expert on these birds but I remember a correspondence years ago with a well known thread starter;

You know in your minds eye what you want in this bird. Then as you hatch and raise these birds from these different strains look for the old Dominique. The blood is there. Someone screwed them up by crossing barred large fowl on them but if you go looking for the type of this small bird I am sure the bird that is in this germ plasma will show up.

Below are some pictures of the "lace-like' effect on my Dominique hen.



Just to the left side of the picture, you can see a solid black feather in her right wing bow.

So if you canmake her contrast in her tail just a bit better, broaden up those wing feathers, and send her to my house and that hen would be just about perfect!

Is that the one in your avatar looks so nice great job hope you're showing them! If you are who I think you are then yes you are showing but who knows on these forums lol

 

[fowlman01]

The Dominique breeders were perfectly happy with the Shilling for 75 years. They were changed not because suddenly Dominiques resembled a child's coloring book drawing, but because the decision was made to print a color version of the SoP and a single artist was selected to paint all the breeds. The resulting illustration was that particular artist's interpretation of the standard, not the breeders.

That is not true. There was input from breeders to the artist, as there still is today when a new illustration is added. The 70 new illustrations by Katherine Plumer are quite accurate.
The APA printed a black and white revision with Schilling prints instead of colored drawings.....we couldn't give them away. That original artist was only paid $50 each to do the illustrations, so they are more cartoon that fine art, but never the less the outlines and general
characteristics of the breeds are very accurate. Color is the real problem and that is a printing problem, not so much an artist problem. If they did it as individual scans the price of the SOP would be around $300.00 each. There is always more to the story than you can read on BYC.

Walt

 

[WallTenters]

Before we need to move onto another breed, are there any other breeders or judges that want to comment on the birds that have been posted? I need to get out to the pens and take photos of those birds we currently have together, I've also got a cockerel here from Farthing's lines so that will be nice to post some photos of him and you can see him in comparison to our birds (I'll try not to overexpose the photos lol but no promises I barely know how to operate the camera )

 

[jonih]

So what I've learned from this discussion is that Dominiques are not only difficult to get right, but also the breeders are very opinionated! Is it time to move on yet? I'm really interested in seeing the Minorcas done...will their class of birds be up anytime soon? I've learned so much about proper breed type from this forum already and can't wait to get back to the real meat and gravy of the learning!

 

[buffalogal]

That is not true. There was input from breeders to the artist, as there still is today when a new illustration is added. The 70 new illustrations by Katherine Plumer are quite accurate.
The APA printed a black and white revision with Schilling prints instead of colored drawings.....we couldn't give them away. That original artist was only paid $50 each to do the illustrations, so they are more cartoon that fine art, but never the less the outlines and general
characteristics of the breeds are very accurate. Color is the real problem and that is a printing problem, not so much an artist problem. If they did it as individual scans the price of the SOP would be around $300.00 each. There is always more to the story than you can read on BYC.

Walt

The story as I have heard it was that when the first colored standard was being put together, one artist was selected to do all the breeds. When that artist was working on the Dominique, changes to the paintings were requested by the DCA but rejected by the artist, and in the end, that person went with their own vision/interpretation. I have not seen the newest version, but I have admired Katherine Plummer's work before; has she done a new Dominique illustration?

As an aside; seriously? $50.00? That's sad. I can't help but wonder why were they so miserly about paying for an artist. (Just a rhetorical question, I don't really expect you to have an answer about how the APA operated back then.

)

 

[Fred's Hens]

Class Schedule Notification​

Time to move on. The time allotted for the Dominique is drawing to a close. We thank everyone for their focused participation. Tomorrow, we shall begin the class section on the Java.

Note: We are working through the American Class, as stated many times previously. There is no good way to get to a specific breed that may interest you. However, each class section, on whatever breed, has proven to be a spirited look at the art and science of breeding to the SOP.

Note: As stated previously, the OP reserves the right to edit the thread, cleaning up extraneous posts to keep the size of the thread manageable and the discussion on point. Thanks to all who participate.

 

[Chris09]

WallTenter,
I think it you that was asking me for some pictures, I will try to get some up soon but it wont be this week. My wife had to fly to Florida this morning for the week do to a death in the family.

Here is another hen of mine that I found and some feathers off of a cockerel that I had in the breeding pen a year or two ago.

Chris

 

[BarnGoddess01]

Learned a TON through the Dominique discussion! Not one of my breeds but I found there was MUCH to be learned watching and reading all of you discuss them in such detail and so passionately.

 

[WallTenters]

I think many see a Dominique and think it is an easy breed, which is just not true. Very difficult color pattern to get right and that is only after you've gotten the type, the comb, and the tail on that male phew lot of work I really respect those on here that have been at it and working hard on them. When Rhonda and I first started showing we went to shows looking for Dominiques expecting we would see some great ones - well there were none! So we started showing what we had even though they were not very good. It was enough to catch the interest of a few others and actually it's great this month we'll be going to a show and competing with two other breeders both with our lines and some other lines as well. They may bring birds from our breeding and whoop us or birds from the other breedings and beat us but it doesn't matter, we are both just tickled pink to see more people breeding and showing this "Magnificent Old Breed", our American Dominique!