CSU - Chicken State University- Large Fowl SOP

[3riverschick]

First, I can't thank you enough for sharing, Dragonlady. Have spent many hours searching for these answers.

a3riverschick: Neck, medium length, slight arch, full hackle, It is interesting the SOP says the hackle should flow quite a bit over the shoulders. I always considered it should stop "at" the shoulders. I need to revisit that. Anyone share why the neck is the shape it is?
Dragonlady: A slightly arched neck provides balance for the body,like a cat's tail.
a3riverschick: We know the Sussex has a very full breast. It should be reminiscent of the Dorking.. Historically called the "Sussex crouch". This website shows the breast development in the Sussex. http://www.skytopbantams.com/sussex.html Look at the long level back and prominent breast on this lovely Skytop bantam: http://www.skytopbantams.com/lily.JPG That said, is this why the neck is only "slightly curved"? If the breast were not so prominently forward of the bird, would the neck have greater arch?
==============================
a3riverschick: Tail: I do not know why the tail is of medium length and well spread. Can anyone help? Ok, we know the wider spread tail i the female indicates a good layer .
The male does not lay. Why does he need the wider tail?
=============================
a3riverschick: Wings: Can anyone help with why the wings are rather long, carried close to the body without drooping? Why is it important the wing not droop?
Dragonlady: Wings are controlled by the Pectoral muscles . Strong pecs make for good, wide breasts on birds.
A3riverschick: Ah! I thought it was maybe indicative of foreign blood like a sebright. I was wrong. Interesting how one can draw such a wrong conclusion about a trait because one does not know the "why" behind the trait.
============================
Dragonlady: Wide, close feathering is good waterproofing. Moderately full dense fluff will stay dry, and keep a hen and her chicks warm. Long , loose fluff gets wet in a hurry.We are seeing this problem in a lot of the English imported Orps now. Some of the winning birds have fluff that trails on the ground, and would become a sodden mess out ranging.
a3riverschick: How does one select for a wider feather? Just hope it shows up and select for it?
===============================
Dragonlady: A strong head is generally indicative of the strength of ANY animal.Crow headed birds tend to be weak in all other points.
a3riverschick: All other points. I thought it was just egg production. Well, that explains a lot. No wonder Setup wrote a book on the subject of "Breeding and Culling for Head Points".
http://archive.org/details/BreedingAndCullingByHeadPoints There seems to be some controversy on the validity of the title subject of his book. I conversed with an elite veteran breeder who revisited the topic on his/her flock and had good success with it improving the traits needed. That's good enough for me.
=========================
Best,
Karen

 

[galanie]

Yes I know, its called cut and dry round these parts LOL we know you get it to the point Galanie.

Not so much as correcting you but just additional info. is what I'd call it.

Yep on the pinched tail

hey when you get to Colmsneil you would only be about 50 or so miles straight thru the pines as a crow flies from my little neck of the woods. There used to be a hawg dawg(Baying and catch) dog trainer out in that area I wonder if it still is in operation?

Jeff

PS on the egg laying song/squawking and carrying on like the world is at end. LOL I have read this is trait brought forth into the chickens doings as it goes back to the wild fowl and such they would go off and lay there egg(s) and in the meantime the rest of the flock would meander off out of sight and hearing distance so when the hen would lay the egg and send out the (call) the cockbird of the flock is supposed to answer this and alert her as to where/which way to head towards to catch back up to the flock? sounds good to me, makes sense too, well with the exception of telling the fox or the snake where she and the eggs are located too?:/

No idea on the hawg dawg man YET, but then after I move there and meet a few folks, maybe. You'll be that close? Well at some point we'll have to visit!

That is a good theory about the noise some make about it all. I can't for the life of me recall the title but there is an old poultry book available online free written by the guy that I assume first started examining bone structure and noticing how it affected a hen's ability to lay, etc. There are also illustrations how to check the width of the hips, pubic bones, condition of the bird by the keel, and such. After reading and studying the illustrations I examined my own. So I know now for sure that the ones with ample room lay quietly and don't make a fuss about it at all.

Maybe coincidence and maybe not? I don't know. But the theory about the nest does make sense.

ETA: Book is "The Call of the Hen"

 

[ChickNmamma]

Quote: Um.. actually I would think in the wild that the chicken would be very quiet until she was far away from the nest - and I have seen some hens "crow" or make another loud call when they are looking for their group instead of calling all predators in the area down on her. The rooster will crow back - and away towards him she went. Since my birds usually make this noise when something upsets them, and I do have birds who make no to-do about laying eggs... I will stick with the theory that the noisy ones are upset

I think this is interesting on the whys of pinched tails vs. non-pinched tails, and why the SOP calls for open tails on most breeds that are supposed to be dual purpose instead of short lived laying machines.

About why the open tail on the rooster - I believe it is because the trait is passed on to his daughters - so he has to have an open tail for them to have an open tail?

 

[Ripster]

galanie, the book you're referring to is "The Call Of The Hen" by Walter Hogan. It contains lots of good information. Here's a link. http://archive.org/details/cu31924003144031

 

[3riverschick]

Reserve Ch. LG. Sussex by Tony Albritton
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g420/cliff1801/SussexTonyResEnglish.jpg
Originally posted by mathace on another BYC Sussex thread.
----------------------------
There is a reprint of a classic article from the 1987 APA Yearbook on the Speckled Sussex by veteran breeder, Maurice C. Wallace , in the 2011 APA Yearbook. He states that Clem Watson stated, the black bar on the speckled feather should be 1/4 inch wide. In our females, Wallace says it should be even narrower.
Wallace states that the hackle and saddle striping should have a clean break where the colors meet the fluff of the underweb. That the hackle and saddle striping does not run solidly into the feather fluff. He says standard makers Well this is fascinating. Wallace writes the if due justice is to be done to the ground color, then the spangling must not be too big. He includes the back bar and the white tip in that definition. He writes that if the size of the spangle isn't kept small, the ground color will belong to the underweb. I wonder what that means? How can the ground color be part of the underweb if it is the ground color? Does he mean the underweb color will become the ground color?
Wallace states that the hackle and saddle striping color should have a clean break where the color meets the feather fluff . He says Standard makers have accepted Schilling's opinion that clear ground color patterns like this are thrown by that clean break.
From Hancox and Van Dort "Colour Genetics" book, we see the Speckled Sussex is not a mille fleur bird. It carries the mottling gene instead.
Karen
Clem Watson; Leo Outram, and Sharpe were the three great Secretaries of the early years of the Sussex Poultry Club in the U.K. From their distinguished careers as poultry men , judges and Sussex experts we have many excellent writings on the breed. Outram was an especially prolific author. Writing many articles and both a 1925 book on the breed and an expanded 1934(35?) edition of that book. The Clem Watson papers are ultra rare, held in only 2 libraries in the world according to OCLC. Country Books in New Zealand (website) reprinted Outram's 1934(35?) book on the Sussex and included reprints of Clem Watson letters. The only place in the world I know where the general public can read them. Sharpe, the originator of the Light Sussex, was also a fine author. Among his many contributions, he wrote , "The Sussex Fowl" which we are blessed to have free online at archive.org http://archive.org/details/cu31924003091398

 

[1muttsfan]

As far a why roosters should have a good tail spread, it is for the same reason - a wide pelvis. They may not lay eggs, but they will still pass on their anatomy. There is a saying that maybe you all are familiar with - "as useless as tits on a boar hog" (hope we can say that here!). Well, if you talk to pig breeders they will tell you that the number and quality of a boar's nipples directly correlates with the number and quality of these in his daughters, so nipple evaluation is very useful when selecting males to raise breeding females from, as there is no point in selecting for sows that produce large litters if they can't feed them.

 

[fowlman01]

First, I can't thank you enough for sharing, Dragonlady. Have spent many hours searching for these answers.

a3riverschick: Neck, medium length, slight arch, full hackle, It is interesting the SOP says the hackle should flow quite a bit over the shoulders. I always considered it should stop "at" the shoulders. I need to revisit that. Anyone share why the neck is the shape it is?
Dragonlady: A slightly arched neck provides balance for the body,like a cat's tail.
a3riverschick: We know the Sussex has a very full breast. It should be reminiscent of the Dorking.. Historically called the "Sussex crouch". This website shows the breast development in the Sussex. http://www.skytopbantams.com/sussex.html Look at the long level back and prominent breast on this lovely Skytop bantam: http://www.skytopbantams.com/lily.JPG That said, is this why the neck is only "slightly curved"? If the breast were not so prominently forward of the bird, would the neck have greater arch?
==============================
a3riverschick: Tail: I do not know why the tail is of medium length and well spread. Can anyone help? Ok, we know the wider spread tail i the female indicates a good layer .
The male does not lay. Why does he need the wider tail?
=============================
a3riverschick: Wings: Can anyone help with why the wings are rather long, carried close to the body without drooping? Why is it important the wing not droop?
Dragonlady: Wings are controlled by the Pectoral muscles . Strong pecs make for good, wide breasts on birds.
A3riverschick: Ah! I thought it was maybe indicative of foreign blood like a sebright. I was wrong. Interesting how one can draw such a wrong conclusion about a trait because one does not know the "why" behind the trait.
============================
Dragonlady: Wide, close feathering is good waterproofing. Moderately full dense fluff will stay dry, and keep a hen and her chicks warm. Long , loose fluff gets wet in a hurry.We are seeing this problem in a lot of the English imported Orps now. Some of the winning birds have fluff that trails on the ground, and would become a sodden mess out ranging.
a3riverschick: How does one select for a wider feather? Just hope it shows up and select for it?
===============================
Dragonlady: A strong head is generally indicative of the strength of ANY animal.Crow headed birds tend to be weak in all other points.
a3riverschick: All other points. I thought it was just egg production. Well, that explains a lot. No wonder Setup wrote a book on the subject of "Breeding and Culling for Head Points".
http://archive.org/details/BreedingAndCullingByHeadPoints There seems to be some controversy on the validity of the title subject of his book. I conversed with an elite veteran breeder who revisited the topic on his/her flock and had good success with it improving the traits needed. That's good enough for me.
=========================
Best,
Karen

Pgs 21 and 22 of the SOP shows the whys to most of your questions.

Walt

 

[thedragonlady]

First, I can't thank you enough for sharing, Dragonlady. Have spent many hours searching for these answers.

a3riverschick: Neck, medium length, slight arch, full hackle, It is interesting the SOP says the hackle should flow quite a bit over the shoulders. I always considered it should stop "at" the shoulders. I need to revisit that. Anyone share why the neck is the shape it is?
Dragonlady: A slightly arched neck provides balance for the body,like a cat's tail.
a3riverschick: We know the Sussex has a very full breast. It should be reminiscent of the Dorking.. Historically called the "Sussex crouch". This website shows the breast development in the Sussex. http://www.skytopbantams.com/sussex.html Look at the long level back and prominent breast on this lovely Skytop bantam: http://www.skytopbantams.com/lily.JPG That said, is this why the neck is only "slightly curved"? If the breast were not so prominently forward of the bird, would the neck have greater arch?

That Bantam has a lovely S curve from the tip of her beak to the bottom of her breast..The neck would have less arch if she had less breast.The legs and feet are the balance point. To achieve balance, both ends have to be equally weighted.She needs that length of back too. With that breast, and arched neck She would tip over with a shorter body.
==============================
a3riverschick: Tail: I do not know why the tail is of medium length and well spread. Can anyone help? Ok, we know the wider spread tail i the female indicates a good layer .
The male does not lay. Why does he need the wider tail?

Last I heard, the males sire those well spread hips and tails !
=============================
a3riverschick: Wings: Can anyone help with why the wings are rather long, carried close to the body without drooping? Why is it important the wing not droop?
Dragonlady: Wings are controlled by the Pectoral muscles . Strong pecs make for good, wide breasts on birds.
A3riverschick: Ah! I thought it was maybe indicative of foreign blood like a sebright. I was wrong. Interesting how one can draw such a wrong conclusion about a trait because one does not know the "why" behind the trait.
============================
Dragonlady: Wide, close feathering is good waterproofing. Moderately full dense fluff will stay dry, and keep a hen and her chicks warm. Long , loose fluff gets wet in a hurry.We are seeing this problem in a lot of the English imported Orps now. Some of the winning birds have fluff that trails on the ground, and would become a sodden mess out ranging.
a3riverschick: How does one select for a wider feather? Just hope it shows up and select for it?

Root through all your hens' feathers, and compare your girls' feathering. Select the widest, feathered ones with good substance to the feathers. You can hold a good feather up to the light, and see the difference between it and a weakly webbed one.''
===============================
Dragonlady: A strong head is generally indicative of the strength of ANY animal.Crow headed birds tend to be weak in all other points.
a3riverschick: All other points. I thought it was just egg production. Well, that explains a lot. No wonder Setup wrote a book on the subject of "Breeding and Culling for Head Points".
http://archive.org/details/BreedingAndCullingByHeadPoints There seems to be some controversy on the validity of the title subject of his book. I conversed with an elite veteran breeder who revisited the topic on his/her flock and had good success with it improving the traits needed. That's good enough for me.

When I was a child I was taken under the wings of a bunch of Irish horsemen who had been through the head lad training system in England.A very knowledgeable bunch. They impressed on me , "If you have to open the box door to see what sex it is; don't bother.." A Male should look male, and a female feminine. There is always a look about the head in a quality critter.
=========================
Best,
Karen

 

[math ace]

Standard weight: Cock @ 7 lbs. Why? I don't know.
Standard weight for hen: 6 lbs. Why? Well, Broomhead says in his excellent treatise on the Light Sussex variety that the best layers do not usually exceed 6 lbs.



I thought the SOP for Sussex weights were heavier than this...

 

[fowlman01]

Standard weight: Cock @ 7 lbs. Why? I don't know.
Standard weight for hen: 6 lbs. Why? Well, Broomhead says in his excellent treatise on the Light Sussex variety that the best layers do not usually exceed 6 lbs.



I thought the SOP for Sussex weights were heavier than this...

They are..........Karen quoted an old writing by Broomhead. His writing has nothing to do with the APA SOP. Weights are: C/9lbs,K/7.5lbs, H/7lbs and P/6lbs.

Walt