CSU - Chicken State University- Large Fowl SOP

[fowlman01]

First: those are not dutch exhibition Welsumers. I know the breeder, Harrie Pelgrim, very well and this birds were for sale. But a man from a magazine passed by his house and took some pictures.
So this isn't the best quality we've got in the Netherlands. And by the way, one hen on this photo is a USA Welsumer.

Second: It is always difficult to tell something about the appearance of a bird from a photo. The wings of the cockerel are too low, but when you take a good look you see he is in action.

Third: Those photos are property of the Dutch Welsumerclub. I put copyright on the pictures to show everybody that they are ours. It is strange to see them passing by on this Forum.
I have put them on Facebook, but that doesn't mean you can use them without permission. I don't want to make a big point of it, but I would have said it. And I agree, they are usefull for the subject.

It is about the Wellsumers in general, not just the chest. We just got a little concentrated on the chest. I would love to hear your comments on the chest however. The APA description also has a copyright, so maybe someone can send you the APA description by PM. I don't see anything wrong with that in this case, but we can't post it online. I would appreciate your input on the birds in general and I don't know what the differences might be between the two Standards. The US and British seem to be the same, but I have not compared them word for word..If you read the British Standard we will probably be close.

Walt

Walt

 

[snowbird]

Walt and All, Waiting to see someone comment on why there are very few Welsumer males seen in the shows in the Midwest, I wonder if it could be the White cotton in the Tail Coverts.

Doug Akers has had Welsumer females on champion row several times here in the Midwest.

 

[Eissens]

Basically, I believe there are lots of issues when one adopts a foreign breed into the APA group. Personally, I would prefer to go with the standard of the country of origin. As for the Welsummers, even the Dutch suggest that the Brits have more of the original type than they themselves have (high tail set, production points). Ours is a conglomerate of different perspectives, and these contentious issues need to be addressed, the sooner the better. In that process, however, please don't make it into a breed that bears no resemblance to what it once was, and please don't overlook the production qualities.

It is in the UK that the egg shell (and productivity) of the Welsummers has been maintained. It is there, I suggest, that the original type has been preserved the best --- not in Holland, not in Germany, not in Denmark or anywhere else. This may have to do with what happened during World War II when so many of the poultry breeds on the European continent were decimated (killed for food in the struggle for human survival).

I also prefer to go with the Standard of the country of origin for every breed. But even in the Netherlands we have made our own Standard of some breeds from other countries (Wyandotte, Bielefelder, ....)

How did you get the information about the higher tail of the British Welsumer, that should be the original type? That's not true. The UK Standard has the same description as the Dutch Standard in this subject. I don't think the British have the original type of the Welsumer, neither we (Netherlands) have. They have the best brown egg laying Welsumer in Europe, but we got Welsumers which lay beautiful speckled eggs. Only the colour of the shell is too pale, but the speckles aren't!

It is interesting to read your thought about World War 2 in combination with the best preserved Welsumers. At that time the Welsumer was a commercial bird, there were many poultry farms around Welsum were they kept Welsumers (more than 100 on each farm) So there weren't one or two breeders to keep the Welsumers alive. So a lot of them survived the WW 2. Also Welsum and the area around it was a agricultural environment, so the people there didn't have to struggle for survival, because there was enough food. In the big citys, like Amsterdam and Rotterdam (the west of the Netherlands) they had serious problems for surviving the war. The Welsumer it self was never in trouble.

 

[Eissens]

Sorry for my English

 

[Eissens]

Sorry about that, Marcel. I assumed that since I was asked to repost them that permission had already been granted. I'll definitely be more careful about using someone else's photos in the future. (I usually get permission before using anyone's photos, just made a silly mistake this time.) Would you like me to remove them?

No, please let them stay. Apologies accepted.

 

[FlashPointFarm]

Walt and All, Waiting to see someone comment on why there are very few Welsumer males seen in the shows in the Midwest, I wonder if it could be the White cotton in the Tail Coverts.

Doug Akers has had Welsumer females on champion row several times here in the Midwest.

Yup, Doug beat my Wellies at the Peoria show this Spring and had his Wellie on Champion Row. It was a very small show, but very nice pullet.

 

[Eissens]

This is a chest we prefer in the Netherlands. Almost a equal dark salmon coloured chest (the literally description of the Dutch Standard)

 

[Eissens]

This is also a good chest, but her chest got more light shafts. Both hens have won a prize on the Dutch poultry show called "Noordshow".
In the Netherlands a lot of Welsumers got light shafts in their chest. All judges make a comment about it when they are judging the Welsumers. It is a point which have the attention of the breeders AND the judges. But it isn't easily to get out of your strain. In my opinion there is a connection with the brown shaft in the cockerels chest.

 

[Dr Bjorn Netland]

I also prefer to go with the Standard of the country of origin for every breed. But even in the Netherlands we have made our own Standard of some breeds from other countries (Wyandotte, Bielefelder, ....)

How did you get the information about the higher tail of the British Welsumer, that should be the original type? That's not true. The UK Standard has the same description as the Dutch Standard in this subject. I don't think the British have the original type of the Welsumer, neither we (Netherlands) have. They have the best brown egg laying Welsumer in Europe, but we got Welsumers which lay beautiful speckled eggs. Only the colour of the shell is too pale, but the speckles aren't!

It is interesting to read your thought about World War 2 in combination with the best preserved Welsumers. At that time the Welsumer was a commercial bird, there were many poultry farms around Welsum were they kept Welsumers (more than 100 on each farm) So there weren't one or two breeders to keep the Welsumers alive. So a lot of them survived the WW 2. Also Welsum and the area around it was a agricultural environment, so the people there didn't have to struggle for survival, because there was enough food. In the big citys, like Amsterdam and Rotterdam (the west of the Netherlands) they had serious problems for surviving the war. The Welsumer it self was never in trouble.

Point of clarification: The assertion that WW II led to a near-demise of Welsummers on the European continent came from a breeder in the UK, as well as an immigrant from India here in the US. This was what I heard many years ago (25 or more). I simply accepted it as fact as it did not sound all that unreasonable. Similar fates were recorded concerning livestock in other countries in Northern Europe as a result of German occupation during the war. The standard picture of the Dutch type of Welsummers (I used to own a copy of that standard, compliments of Hans Schippers) shows a bird with a relatively high tail set, and the British standard states, I believe, "tail carried high" or something to that effect. Both the Dutch and the British thus have standards that are fairly close to one another. The Welsummers in the UK were already established as a show breed (probably along with a utility breed) before World War II. The information I have come across suggested that this was also the case in the Netherlands. Not so? The popularity of the breed in Britain, from the very beginning, seems to have been based on the terra cotta (reddish brown) eggs which were the trade mark at the time. This quality has been maintained in the Welsummer flocks I know of in the UK. I also know that some breeders in the Netherlands are bemoaning the loss of the eggshell quality present in British birds and have imported birds from the Netherlands to "improve" this trait in Dutch Welsummers. I have no idea whether the Welsummers in Holland survived as a commercial breed or an exhibition breed, or a mixture of both. However, I am not totally dismissing the possibility that the breed survived better in England than elsewhere in its "original" version. Anthropological observations often attest to the fact that it is the "emigrants" that best preserve some of the qualities of the country or origin whereas the development seems to "continue" back in the home country.
Several years ago, I read with great interest a lot of material provided to me by Hans Schippers, both on the Welsummers and the Barnevelders. Most of it was in Dutch (which I still can read fairly well), but some also copies of early publications in the UK and Germany. Along with my own experience with the breed, I thought I had acquired a pretty good understanding of the Welsummers. Obviously, there are several areas in which I need to update my knowledge. Lifelong learning is not a bad thing. I really appreciate your contribution.
Regards,
Bjorn

 

[EweSheep]

I reposted, and apparently mislabeled them.. so I'm guilty too - so sorry!!

I am "top dog" guilty any of you! I'm the one that started it but it was for educational purposes. I thought they belonged to Harrie and I didn't think he would mind at all. After all, I left the "water mark" on it.

Should we remove it from BYC?