Dogs fighting, blood, why?

[Purple_grape84]

Hello everyone,

My dogs were fighting this morning when I was in the barn doing chores. I don't know what started it, Lilly seemed to be the aggressor as Tam broke off 2x and Lilly came after her again. minor cuts on ears, blood on scruffs and a small cut on Lilly's neck. I think that is where all the blood on Tam and Lilly came from. They have been together for 2 months with no issues. Lilly is very submissive to humans and was starting to play with the big girls finally.

History:
I have three dogs: Coco: 8 yrs old, lab/pyrenese cross, Tam: 5 yrs, Coco's daughter, 1/2 shepherd, Lilly: 8yrs, maybe some hound/lab/border collie, who knows, she does have double nails on her dew claws. The big girls, Coco and Tam, are predator protection dogs. Lilly is a medium farm dog.

Lilly came with the farm I bought in December. My sister brought out Coco and Tam in December, she had had them for many years and had to give them up when she moved off her farm.

Why did Lilly think she could take Tam? Coco mostly stayed on the edges as back up to Tam, which is normal for them. Tam is a powerful dog who has killed a large dog on my sisters property. I know that if Tam wanted to Lilly wouldn't have a chance.

How do I reintroduce them and know that this won't happen again? Was it a dominance thing?

They are separated now, Lilly in the bathroom, Coco and Tam on the landing. Coco seemed very upset by the whole thing.

 

[LoveMyChickenBabies]

Hello everyone,

My dogs were fighting this morning when I was in the barn doing chores. I don't know what started it, Lilly seemed to be the aggressor as Tam broke off 2x and Lilly came after her again. minor cuts on ears, blood on scruffs and a small cut on Lilly's neck. I think that is where all the blood on Tam and Lilly came from. They have been together for 2 months with no issues. Lilly is very submissive to humans and was starting to play with the big girls finally.

History:
I have three dogs: Coco: 8 yrs old, lab/pyrenese cross, Tam: 5 yrs, Coco's daughter, 1/2 shepherd, Lilly: 8yrs, maybe some hound/lab/border collie, who knows, she does have double nails on her dew claws. The big girls, Coco and Tam, are predator protection dogs. Lilly is a medium farm dog.

Lilly came with the farm I bought in December. My sister brought out Coco and Tam in December, she had had them for many years and had to give them up when she moved off her farm.

Why did Lilly think she could take Tam? Coco mostly stayed on the edges as back up to Tam, which is normal for them. Tam is a powerful dog who has killed a large dog on my sisters property. I know that if Tam wanted to Lilly wouldn't have a chance.

How do I reintroduce them and know that this won't happen again? Was it a dominance thing? View attachment 1673223 View attachment 1673224

They are separated now, Lilly in the bathroom, Coco and Tam on the landing. Coco seemed very upset by the whole thing.

I would think that it was a dominance thing. She could've felt that she was last in the 'barking order' so she challenged one of the higher members, trying to move up.

You can reintroduce them, slowly, but you will never know if this will happen again or not, it just depends if Lilly feels like she is tired of being bottom dog again.

Could Tam have annoyed Lilly, so she got fed up and snapped back?
Has this ever happened before?
Has Lilly ever seemed aggressive towards Tam until now?

 

[Purple_grape84]

I would think that it was a dominance thing. She could've felt that she was last in the 'barking order' so she challenged one of the higher members, trying to move up.

You can reintroduce them, slowly, but you will never know if this will happen again or not, it just depends if Lilly feels like she is tired of being bottom dog again.

Could Tam have annoyed Lilly, so she got fed up and snapped back?
Has this ever happened before?
Has Lilly ever seemed aggressive towards Tam until now?

No Lilly has never seemed aggressive. It was her farm for many years before I bought it and brought Tam and Coco. She hid from them at first.

Tam was just holding her on the ground when I first found them fighting. Still lots of growling and barking, not playing. But when I got Tam to let go Lilly went at her again. I wasn't really worried until Lilly went at her a second time and Tam started shaking her.

Tam is not usually the one to start anything with Lilly. She'll try to get Coco to play with her by grabbing her back leg, but Lilly is the one I've seen initiate playing with Tam by jumping up at her throat. Tam doesn't usually engage, but sometimes will give a little chase.

 

[LoveMyChickenBabies]

No Lilly has never seemed aggressive. It was her farm for many years before I bought it and brought Tam and Coco. She hid from them at first.

Tam was just holding her on the ground when I first found them fighting. Still lots of growling and barking, not playing. But when I got Tam to let go Lilly went at her again. I wasn't really worried until Lilly went at her a second time and Tam started shaking her.

Tam is not usually the one to start anything with Lilly. She'll try to get Coco to play with her by grabbing her back leg, but Lilly is the one I've seen initiate playing with Tam by jumping up at her throat. Tam doesn't usually engage, but sometimes will give a little chase.

It was smart to separate them.
Could something have spooked Lilly and she ran into Tam, and since she was spooked, fought out of instinct?

 

[Purple_grape84]

It was smart to separate them.
Could something have spooked Lilly and she ran into Tam, and since she was spooked, fought out of instinct?

Maybe. Lilly is exhausted, still sleeping in bathroom. I'll try reintroducing them tonight I think. @LoveMyChickenBabies Thank you so much for thinking this over with me. I was just so shocked. I have always had dogs and sure they fight from time to time, but this seemed different.

 

[LoveMyChickenBabies]

Maybe. Lilly is exhausted, still sleeping in bathroom. I'll try reintroducing them tonight I think. @LoveMyChickenBabies Thank you so much for thinking this over with me. I was just so shocked. I have always had dogs and sure they fight from time to time, but this seemed different.

No problem, when you re-introduce them, make sure you'll be able to seperate them easily just in case

 

[Bunnylady]

It was her farm for many years

I think dominance, too. Lilly may have seemed to have yielded the top spot when her territory was invaded by an established pack, but that doesn't mean she likes the situation.

But when I got Tam to let go Lilly went at her again.

Obviously, you had to separate them; you couldn't just let Tam kill her, too (and of course, Lilly knows nothing of Tam's potential and history). But Lilly may have read your intervention as supporting her, and actually taken encouragement from that ("Oh, boy! The alpha is on my side!"). Dog minds don't work the way ours do; what's the saying, "it's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog?" This quote isn't specifically about dogs, of course, but it is based on observation; many have seen small animals that should be hopelessly outclassed physically that dominate much larger animals by sheer force of will.

Unfortunately, this may be an ongoing issue, and this "unfinished business" may crop up again repeatedly.

Have you checked Lilly out closely? One time when some of our dogs fought to the point of drawing blood, there were puncture wounds on the scruff deep enough to cause infection and need treatment, that didn't seem that bad at first.

 

[Purple_grape84]

I think dominance, too. Lilly may have seemed to have yielded the top spot when her territory was invaded by an established pack, but that doesn't mean she likes the situation.



Obviously, you had to separate them; you couldn't just let Tam kill her, too (and of course, Lilly knows nothing of Tam's potential and history). But Lilly may have read your intervention as supporting her, and actually taken encouragement from that ("Oh, boy! The alpha is on my side!"). Dog minds don't work the way ours do; what's the saying, "it's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog?" This quote isn't specifically about dogs, of course, but it is based on observation; many have seen small animals that should be hopelessly outclassed physically that dominate much larger animals by sheer force of will.

Unfortunately, this may be an ongoing issue, and this "unfinished business" may crop up again repeatedly.

Have you checked Lilly out closely? One time when some of our dogs fought to the point of drawing blood, there were puncture wounds on the scruff deep enough to cause infection and need treatment, that didn't seem that bad at first.

Hi @Bunnylady.
Ill check out her scruff closer, there didn't seem to be any blood from it. But her lip is hanging loose on the side and I think that's where most of the blood was coming from. Her neck is pretty sore and she has a swelling under her muzzle, all on the same side. I think that's where Tam was holding her down.
I tried to introduce the dogs this morning. Lilly had stayed inside all night. Lilly got her scruff up and the big girls tried smelling her. It didn't go well. Lilly got a puncture on her chest, but I got her back inside pretty quick.
I'm off to YouTube to watch some caesar millan.

 

[Ribh]

Have you neutered your dogs? Un~netured dogs are far more likely to fight, as are dogs of the same sex. It may also be about territory if one of them is particularly possessive.

 

[Banditschickens]

Get Some mesh muzzles. That will keep them from biting each other when reintroducing them. Maybe then they can get a lot of the grumbling out the way without drawing blood.
They can be found at pet stores. Also on Amazon. Around $16.00 {American Dollars}