Dominique Thread!

[wsmith]

In 2013 my laying Dominique hens had an average lay factor of .512. That is for the whole year, which works out to be 187 eggs per hen per year. Working on improving that, but its a long term project. I also breed to standard. I also have lots of "utility" birds each year that I cull from my breeding flock. Those I sell to local folks who have no interest in breeding, only laying hens. They do fine with that job.

 

[Delight in Dominiques]

Production of 150 eggs a year is a good lay rate. Taking into effect hatching,brooding,molt and importantly longevity in rate of lay. The most important idea I am trying to push is the fact that show birds do not have to differ from what most deem a true Dominique chicken. Breeding to the Standard is selecting for the ideas of the conditions and environment the Dominique of old provided for their owners. We as breeders contain these birds so we have to select for the strongest attributes for the flock to stay strong healthy. A while back I gave hatching eggs to a couple from my church. I have helped them select and cull the flock down to a nice trio. One day while having a conversation with them he told me an older Gentleman in his 80's visited his orchard. When he saw the Dominiques, he quickly identified the birds by name and said they look just like the birds he remembered when he was a kid. As a regional coordinator for the club I constantly push our members to show or attend shows. These shows allow others to see the breed, allows owners to meet others interested and most importantly allows owners to learn more about raising poultry from those that have many years of experience.

 

[Zone3Dakota]

Terms vary between (and even 'amongst') species. I doubt that there was even a term 'pet quality', back in the day.

In pigeons, the term 'utility' seems to mean that the bird is not being used as a sport bird. That can actually mean a pigeon from race lines that is being used to foster better racing birds or it could mean a breed that is used for eggs or squabbing. Show Racers were supposed to be bred to be an example of conformation that is desirable for racers, but the breed generally doesn't have much of a chance against the performance racers in a race.

In hunting dog breeds, there is often completely different breeding lines between the show dogs and the active hunter lines. Same breed just split into 'specialties'. The aptitude for the show dogs to hunt might be drastically reduced and the conformation of the hunters might make them a 'joke' in the show ring.

Anyway, I'm learning about the various chicken breeds, some seem to have been hurt in their ability to be 'productive' in the way that they were originally intended, due to the 'show'. Just as an observer, I'd say that Dominiques have not been hit as hard in that regard as some of the other breeds.

 

[The Yakima Kid]

Terms vary between (and even 'amongst') species. I doubt that there was even a term 'pet quality', back in the day.

In pigeons, the term 'utility' seems to mean that the bird is not being used as a sport bird. That can actually mean a pigeon from race lines that is being used to foster better racing birds or it could mean a breed that is used for eggs or squabbing. Show Racers were supposed to be bred to be an example of conformation that is desirable for racers, but the breed generally doesn't have much of a chance against the performance racers in a race.

In hunting dog breeds, there is often completely different breeding lines between the show dogs and the active hunter lines. Same breed just split into 'specialties'. The aptitude for the show dogs to hunt might be drastically reduced and the conformation of the hunters might make them a 'joke' in the show ring.

Anyway, I'm learning about the various chicken breeds, some seem to have been hurt in their ability to be 'productive' in the way that they were originally intended, due to the 'show'. Just as an observer, I'd say that Dominiques have not been hit as hard in that regard as some of the other breeds.

I know. And with hunting dogs, the show conformation is often counterproductive in the field. The reason Black and Tan coonhounds tend to be double registered UKC/AKC is that the AKC has no meaningful performance standard, and the AKC conformation standard creates a blocky dog with less endurance on a long hunt - exactly the wrong shape for a cold-nosed breed. Black and Tans were bred to stay on the original struck trail and to not "jump" to a hotter trail, which means they need the stamina to trail all night if required.

In poultry since at least as far back as 1900, there has also been a distinct division between show and utility poultry. While the show breeders of Plymouth Rocks focused on barring and size details, the utility breeders developed strains that emphasized utility traits. There is an incredibly high producing Plymouth Rock egg strain one can still get out of Decorah, Iowa - the Decorah Hatchery itself is now a clothing store - through the family that used to operate the Decorah Hatchery. The Decorah Hatchery clothing store web page has information on how to reach the hatchery family for chicks. The egg strain is noticeably lighter than the standard; interestingly enough, Professor James Dryden in the 1910s though the Plymouth Rock standard was oversized. In the absence of near universal refrigeration, people preferred a chicken large enough for a single family meal with no leftovers.

I use the Barred Rock as my example since there are very few people who don't agree that if half as much effort had been put into breeding for production as was put into even barring, they'd probably still be a major commercial breed.
Pet Quality is a derisory term I heard used by people on the dog show circuit years and years ago. Mind you, some of the dogs they referred to as "pet quality" were UKC Night Champions that tended to be leaner in the barrel, more on the leg, and longer eared than the AKC standard dogs, who in turn were referred to by hounds men as "Teats on a Boar Hog" quality. All of the differences derided in the AKC standard were the result of breeding for endurance and stamina - including the radiator ears, the more easily cooled barrel with a greater ratio of surface area, and longer legs both for stride and surface area for cooling.

 

[The Yakima Kid]

Production of 150 eggs a year is a good lay rate. Taking into effect hatching,brooding,molt and importantly longevity in rate of lay. The most important idea I am trying to push is the fact that show birds do not have to differ from what most deem a true Dominique chicken. Breeding to the Standard is selecting for the ideas of the conditions and environment the Dominique of old provided for their owners. We as breeders contain these birds so we have to select for the strongest attributes for the flock to stay strong healthy. A while back I gave hatching eggs to a couple from my church. I have helped them select and cull the flock down to a nice trio. One day while having a conversation with them he told me an older Gentleman in his 80's visited his orchard. When he saw the Dominiques, he quickly identified the birds by name and said they look just like the birds he remembered when he was a kid. As a regional coordinator for the club I constantly push our members to show or attend shows. These shows allow others to see the breed, allows owners to meet others interested and most importantly allows owners to learn more about raising poultry from those that have many years of experience.

I'd love to improve the conformations of my flock.

The problem with "breeding to the standard" is that it actually does not reflect the best bird that would survive and produce under the conditions of old because one is selecting for physical, external characteristics that may - or more importantly may NOT - be related to those aptitudes, such as strength, thriftiness, etc. The standard only reflects a desirable *appearance* of old.

For many years it was assumed that good layers were long bodied, and all sorts of conformation traits were ascribed related performance factors. Then Dryden got busy at Oregon Agricultural College (now OSU.) He soon discovered that he had birds that would easily have won in the show ring that produced a grand total of 37 eggs per year - or even less. He found some of the ugliest, short bodied, odd looking biddies who were so productive that they wore their feathers off in the nest boxes.

I agree 150 is reasonable, but it is actually the lower end, assuming you break up your biddies as soon as they go broody and aren't hatching. Even with the molt, 180 - 200 should be an attainable goal. Mind you, I'm not concerned about production levels as long as they fall between 150 - 180 since the thriftiness of Dominiques in rustling up quite a few of their own meals makes them a reasonably economical choice. They are also excellent garden pest control; mine have essentially eradicated our former plague of snails, and spend time under the deck almost every day, catching and eating any that have managed to evade them in the past. Watching them diligently turn over the wood chip mulch between the raised beds in order to catch hiding snails is quite the entertainment. I can't seem to persuade them to eat many ants, though.

 

[lazy gardener]

Back to the tick question: I'm going into my second summer with chickens. On just over 4 acres of land, with about an acre of lawn that is chopped up into several connected rectangles, the chickens range the lawn and about 50' into the woods around the lawn. My cats started out the spring, bringing in up to 5 ticks/week. I have not seen a tick on either one of my cats in over a month. That may be related to the season, but I'm hearing that Maine is over run by ticks this season. I'd like to think that my chooks are doing their part. Also of interest, is that I have yet to find a single flea or any flea dirt on either of my cats, and I do an inspection daily.

 

[The Yakima Kid]

In 2013 my laying Dominique hens had an average lay factor of .512. That is for the whole year, which works out to be 187 eggs per hen per year. Working on improving that, but its a long term project. I also breed to standard. I also have lots of "utility" birds each year that I cull from my breeding flock. Those I sell to local folks who have no interest in breeding, only laying hens. They do fine with that job.

A rate of 187 eggs per year in a heavy forager makes them economical for homestead use. They wouldn't be commercial birds, but they are well in line with earning a little meat and egg money and providing for family needs.

My perspective is predicated on what were the actual attributes that earned a breed high praise in it is heyday - and with Dominiques it seems that thriftiness, hardiness, temperament, and longevity were the strongest suits. A bird that is capable of foraging a large portion of its own feed can produce less and still cost no more per egg or pound of meat than a higher producing bird that requires more intensive feeding.

Like I have said, I really would like to have better conformation in my flock - which would mean acquiring better stock and having someone to advise me on which to keep and which to cull. Unfortunately, not many people in California seem to breed Dominiques. The cachet breeders here are currently off raising Cream Legbars, Icelandic Hens, Norwegian hens, Ayam Cemani (at about $5K for a pair), and other imported esoterica. It seems few people are as interested in preserving and improving our own land race breed that seems perfectly adapted to every place in the United States, including Alaska and Hawaii. It kind of depresses me when people go on endlessly about the marvelous toughness of Icelandic Hens and completely miss that we have a breed just as good that originated here in the United States, the Dominique.

 

[wsmith]

Another observation from this past spring.... My original assumption when i first acquired Dominiques, was that hatchery birds would be better layers overall than show stock.....When I was running my breeding pens this spring, most of my hatchery birds were in the laying yard, not in the breeding pens. A couple were but only a couple. I chose my breeding hens based on SoP and also pelvic spread. My breeding hens outlayed the run of the mill hatchery birds nearly 2:1.
I will continue to watch and evaluate, but in the case of Dominiques, I would submit that attention to breed standard with the proper tail spread (which directly coorelates to the pelvic spread) will result in overall improved lay rates. The Dominique hen standard reflected the qualities that were valued in the breed. Don't breed hens that have pinched or wry tails. Make sure that their tails are at about 45 degrees. Just a couple of the many things I look for. We'll see what this years numbers look like when the time comes.

 

[gootziecat]

Ah, yes. Fads prevail. But remember, what goes around, comes around.

 

[The Yakima Kid]

Another observation from this past spring.... My original assumption when i first acquired Dominiques, was that hatchery birds would be better layers overall than show stock.....When I was running my breeding pens this spring, most of my hatchery birds were in the laying yard, not in the breeding pens. A couple were but only a couple. I chose my breeding hens based on SoP and also pelvic spread. My breeding hens outlayed the run of the mill hatchery birds nearly 2:1.
I will continue to watch and evaluate, but in the case of Dominiques, I would submit that attention to breed standard with the proper tail spread (which directly coorelates to the pelvic spread) will result in overall improved lay rates. The Dominique hen standard reflected the qualities that were valued in the breed. Don't breed hens that have pinched or wry tails. Make sure that their tails are at about 45 degrees. Just a couple of the many things I look for. We'll see what this years numbers look like when the time comes.

Ummm...... you're looking at an external factor that may well be one of those debunked by Dryden's work in the early 20th C. Biddy's pelvis spreads when she is in lay.

I agree with what you have said here - but my reality is that finding quality stock is not an option in California. I don't hatch because I can't have roosters, and I don't like killing them as early as one must to avoid being cited and fined - they just aren't quite meat birds yet, so it seems like a waste of poor Cockerel's life for nothing.

I'd love to find some Dominiques who didn't have either telescoping or Wyandotte combs or wry tails. My best looking girl has the unfortunate flaw that her cuckoo coloring ends before the feather margins, so some of her feathers are rimmed with off-white instead of being barred to the edge.