Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[BGMatt]

Thanks for that idea, I'll keep it in mind.  Had not even gotten that far in a plan, since it seems important to try to keep the lines going separately.  Other than killing and eating them, I had not worked out any other plan if things didn't improve with them. 

There is such a limited amount of pure Java genetics that go back farther than about 20 years, so I am trying to give them time to recover after having been neglected for so long.  Urch cas been carrying a lot of bird breeds for a long time due to lack of breeders, but I can see the difference it makes with having Urch at least trying to keep the birds from disappearing, and birds that were just tossed in a pen and left to their own devices for who knows how long.

I'm gonna copy your suggestions down to keep for reference going forward if things stay stalled at such a substandard level.

People get way too attached to named lines. Once the original breeder of that line stops having input on the breeder selection and culling it really isn't truly that line anymore. Chickens aren't pedigreed, best advice for the breed would be either outcross as suggested, or ditch the inferior "line" entirely and continue breeding your other line that is more in line with what you want.

 

[bnjrob]

People get way too attached to named lines. Once the original breeder of that line stops having input on the breeder selection and culling it really isn't truly that line anymore. Chickens aren't pedigreed, best advice for the breed would be either outcross as suggested, or ditch the inferior "line" entirely and continue breeding your other line that is more in line with what you want.

I understand this and agree with the idea of a breeder's line stopping when it leaves their hands.

However for most serious Java breeders, it is not about being enamored with a particular breeder's strain as a means to sell birds or claim any quality by continuing to use their names. It is about tracing pure bloodlines back into history because there have been so few of them for the past 100 years. One Java breeder has been keeping records and disseminated charts so we can see where things are at. There are a lot more historical aspects at play with Javas than what most people deal with in their breeds. The purity of Java bloodlines has been a topic of concern for many years and utilizing the oldest names of the strains help to more easily ID who has what birds and how they are doing.

 

[BGMatt]

I understand this and agree with the idea of a breeder's line stopping when it leaves their hands.

However for most serious Java breeders, it is not about being enamored with a particular breeder's strain as a means to sell birds or claim any quality by continuing to use their names. It is about tracing pure bloodlines back into history because there have been so few of them for the past 100 years. One Java breeder has been keeping records and disseminated charts so we can see where things are at. There are a lot more historical aspects at play with Javas than what most people deal with in their breeds. The purity of Java bloodlines has been a topic of concern for many years and utilizing the oldest names of the strains help to more easily ID who has what birds and how they are doing.

That's just it, this whole "pure blood lines" thing is hogwash in poultry. I'm aware of the history of the Java, my breed was one of the ones used to create it. Was just saying if people really are concerned with preserving the breed, they need to get over the obsession with "bloodlines", breed for the desired qualities, and since they're relatively rare, make health and vigor the number one concern (which any serious breeder does already).

Edit: This article published by the ABA kind of deals with preservation and might be worth a read...
http://bantamclub.com/aba/index.php/articles/165-breeding-from-unrelated-parents

 

[bnjrob]

I've got a Java question for the Java people- how do those Mottled Javas from the major hatcheries measure up? Are they anything like they are supposed to be? It would be great to hear the "whys-" I'd like to learn what to look for.
I'm not planning on getting any, but as a chicken fancier- and since we're talking about Javas for the most part, it would be good to learn more. This has been an eye opener |(in a good way) so far- Thanks.

I have some Blacks that came from a smaller hatchery and while they are fabulous egg layers, their meat production and their appearance suck. They look like a generic chicken shape. They look fine running around the pasture, but put them side by side with one of my standard bred birds and they don't have the regal look to them that Javas should have. Even when I have taken photos and turned them black and white so as not to see the difference in feather color, their conformation just does not measure up to the better SOP typed birds.

Have seen photos of hatchery Mottleds and they have the same issues as my hatchery Blacks - poor type, not for meat production. Have seen varying reports of egg laying in the hatchery Mottleds with good egg laying and not so good, but I didn't question the people about what their expectations on egg laying was to see if they were comparing their egg laying machines to their hatchery Javas.

 

[bnjrob]

That's just it, this whole "pure blood lines" thing is hogwash in poultry. I'm aware of the history of the Java, my breed was one of the ones used to create it. Was just saying if people really are concerned with preserving the breed, they need to get over the obsession with "bloodlines", breed for the desired qualities, and since they're relatively rare, make health and vigor the number one concern (which any serious breeder does already).

Where the purity of Java bloodlines really comes into play is in the politics of the various color varieties. Which has been argued about since not long after they were admitted to the SOP. It's very convoluted and there are several different aspects to the argument, some of which people are claiming as truth when they have not done the research to even back up their claims, but people listen to them because they seem credible. Where I have concerns about it today is the historical claims being made by people who are trying to make money off of their new creations and who want to not only basically *patent* a color variety, but they want to get the SOP changed. Fortunately Walt has been a big proponent of making it hard to get the SOP changed, but the concern is still there and the argument continues on.

 

[BGMatt]

Where the purity of Java bloodlines really comes into play is in the politics of the various color varieties. Which has been argued about since not long after they were admitted to the SOP. It's very convoluted and there are several different aspects to the argument, some of which people are claiming as truth when they have not done the research to even back up their claims, but people listen to them because they seem credible. Where I have concerns about it today is the historical claims being made by people who are trying to make money off of their new creations and who want to not only basically *patent* a color variety, but they want to get the SOP changed. Fortunately Walt has been a big proponent of making it hard to get the SOP changed, but the concern is still there and the argument continues on.

Ok, but the point is if it meets the physical description of a Java, and produces like a Java should...it is a Java. If it's a "Java" from a "bloodline" that's allegedly pure for "X" years, but doesn't represent the physical or production aspects of the breed, it isn't a Java worth propagating, regardless of it's lineage.

While an even newer breed, the Delaware had something where a lady recreated them from the original methods, and everyone called them "Recreated Delawares" and insinuated they weren't actual Delawares which couldn't be further from the truth. Phenotype and Production are what defines a breed, or group of birds in poultry, that's the way it is. Which is also why the "So and So's Line" is useless. If I sell you Langshans, and you have no idea how to breed them and in three years have things that look more like a feather legged Australorp, even though those birds are "pure Langshans" they're not really, and certainly not my line. Make sense yet?

 

[bnjrob]

Ok, but the point is if it meets the physical description of a Java, and produces like a Java should...it is a Java. If it's a "Java" from a "bloodline" that's allegedly pure for 50 years, but doesn't represent the physical or production aspects of the breed, it isn't a Java worth propagating, regardless of it's lineage.

While an even newer breed, the Delaware had something where a lady recreated them from the original methods, and everyone called them "Recreated Delawares" and insinuated they weren't actual Delawares which couldn't be further from the truth. Phenotype and Production are what defines a breed, or group of birds in poultry, that's the way it is. Which is also why the "So and So's Line" is useless. If I sell you Langshans, and you have no idea how to breed them and in three years have things that look more like a feather legged Australorp, even though those birds are "pure Langshans" they're not really, and certainly not my line. Make sense yet?

You've made sense from the first and I understand the concept of *if it looks like a Java, it is a Java*. Under that theory, I should be able to go get some Black Australorps, breed them to the Java SOP, and when I get them looking enough like a Java, I can enter them in a show as a Java and start calling them Javas. And people wouldn't know the difference unless I told them.

But I believe in trying to preserve history. And for me to take Australorps and turn them into Javas, cheapens the Java history in my mind. A lot of things went into getting Javas into the SOP and to take them from where they came from, to where they are now, and to throw 150 years of breeder's work out the window just isn't something I want to do. If I had birds that were made up of different known breeds, then perhaps it wouldn't seem so bad to me to go by the *if it looks like a breed, it is the breed*. But I don't. I have Javas, birds that have a fascinating history and can be traced back a lot longer than many others, birds that have been used as a foundation for other newer breeds. And so purity and history are important to me.

 

[bnjrob]

I've been told by a Black Java breeder that even my Mottleds are not *true* Javas, because they were made using a white hen that may or may not have been a Java, depending on which version of history you read. What is funny is that this person apparently has not seen the literature I have found, citing how many different birds, including breed names that are around today, were actually called Javas. And there are conflicting theories regarding Javas coming from the island of Java as is - and thus being the *true* Black Java, and many different birds that were made into the form of Javas accepted into the SOP which were different than what today's Java looks like. Kinda depends on what info a person has seen as to what they believe about the Java, and it's a fight that has been going on forever and will likely go on as long as Javas are still around.

What I do know is that I can't ignore history. Javas have been kicked around like vermin since the 19th century. APA politics forced Java breeders to change the SOP of the White Java, so that the White Rock breeders could get their way. Thus White Javas disappeared because the SOP was changed to include a trait that was rare among the White Javas. Many people did not want Black or Mottled Javas in the SOP and tried to rally others to convince the APA to remove all traces of the Java from the SOP. The Java has issues, and I think I may have hit on some reasons why they were more popular with farmers than poultry show exhibitioners. But I think they are good birds and deserve to keep their history and heritage intact without cross breeding something else into them since they are considered a foundation breed.

And apparently someone else felt that way too, because they actually changed the Mottled SOP as a means to keep crossbreed birds from being passed off as Javas. A snippet from the American Poultry Journal 1922:

 

[Wisher1000]

Quote:

Under that theory, I should be able to go get some Black Australorps, breed them to the Java SOP, and when I get them looking enough like a Java, I can enter them in a show as a Java and start calling them Javas. And people wouldn't know the difference unless I told them.

The need to eliminate the cross breeds (your snippet) was due to the ease of getting a bird that would have the proper mottling, but would rarely, if ever, breed true. That does not a breed make.

If you bred those BAs the all the way up to Java standard and to the point that they (and their offspring for generations afterward) would consistently breed true to standard, it would not be cheating at all. They would be Javas. That would take a lot of hard work and dedication, skill and talent, and anyone interested in your birds would value them for that reason.

 

[bnjrob]

The need to eliminate the cross breeds (your snippet) was due to the ease of getting a bird that would have the proper mottling, but would rarely, if ever, breed true. That does not a breed make.

If you bred those BAs the all the way up to Java standard and to the point that they (and their offspring for generations afterward) would consistently breed true to standard, it would not be cheating at all. They would be Javas. That would take a lot of hard work and dedication, skill and talent, and anyone interested in your birds would value them for that reason.

The change in the Mottled SOP has definitely made it difficult for anyone to obtain that precise mottling. All of the photos I've found show the same splashed coloration that we have now. But I can appreciate the fact that they changed the SOP with the intent of keeping the Java bloodlines pure. I've found evidence of an apparently good amount of *breed swapping* so to speak, of entering other birds as Javas in shows. And to someone that has put the work into getting their pureblooded Java up to the SOP, with all the Java's quirks, only to have someone enter a different bird as a Java would be irritating to me.

Of course it is possible that if I were interested in this from an exhibitioner's perspective and only interested in getting an SOP bird to take to shows, then I may not feel like taking one breed and turning it into another would be *cheating*. But I don't give a rat's behind about showing. I got into poultry keeping for the utility purposes. I decided to learn about the SOP because I thought it was important to not have generic birds and to keep the integrity of my breed's heritage intact - political arguments and all the trouble it has had throughout the years. And it's something that I believe in as much as I believe in my right to being a gun toting Christian that is proud of her Southern Heritage. It's just something that I can't explain to other people that don't feel the same way.