How many wine makers do we have here?

[2overeasy000]

Quote:
I've been lucky (so far) not to have had any wines that made me ill. I have had an occasional one that had gone off (hydrogen sulfide) in a blackberry wine, or had MEK or other nasty tastes/smells in a strawberry wine. I didn't drink them so don't know if they would have made me sick.

Not sure how "lucky" you've been since I doubt that any of it would have made you ill. Off tastes and smells are completely subjective, but I do however no what you are getting at. I also disinfect my counter-tops, but don't use any raw meats in my wines so I don't agree with the analogy.

Many people think that the fermentation will kill ickies in wine, when really the fermentation process is simply converting sugar to alcohol and carbon dioxide gas. Alcohol is a sterilant to some degree, but in the level it is found in wine, it wouldn't be protection against "bad stuff". Anyone seen the movie "Arsenic and Old Lace"?

Actually, it is not that simple at all. Yeast converts sugar to alcohol, and carbon dioxide, and hydrogen sulfide, and many other bi-products. Still not sure what "bad stuff" you are referring to? I've heard of the movie and I don't think any of the poisons came from homebrewing the elderberry wine. Again, if you are aware of any "bad stuff" that could make us ill, please let me know.

It's simply not worth it to me to spend my time and money making wine only to have it go bad and not be drinkable or "potentially" harmful.

This is a good point. Most chemicals are used to simply make the process easier and more consistent, not to protect from anything harmful.

I'm not trying to be an alarmist. But I do think that several centuries of winemaking, and several thousands of professional winemaker can't be wrong; if that's the way they do it, can't be bad!

As I'm sure you know, wine has been made for over 6000 years, most of that without any chemical additives. Several thousand winemakers, as I previously stated, simply want to make the process easier and more consistent and cost effective for large scale operations. Personally, I'll leave the potassium metabisulfite to the photographers.

 

[Totalcolour]

Quote:
If you are making wines you like without chemicals, then go for it! Everyone has a style of their own, and we should all do what we enjoy, in our own way. Sometimes, there really isn't a right or wrong way.

All I wanted to state, was that using chemicals, can be easier, and make more consistent wines, especially for the beginner. (Which you so correctly pointed out). When one is starting a new venture, success or failure can often determine whether or not a person will continue with said venture.

Chemicals aren't inherently bad. Our bodies are made up with them, and we ingest them every day from multiple sources, most of the time, unknowingly.

You have obviously made your winemaking into an art, without chemical aids, which is really an accomplishment.

For those who aren't as accomplished (YET!) the addition of chemicals may be a reasonable choice.

Carpe Vinum

 

[muddstopper]

Quote:
Not true AT ALL! In fact, it can contribute to the final finish in a positive way. Natually, ANYONE with any allergic reaction to sulfite should not make/consume wine with sulfite. Used correctly, there is absolutely no problem with it. In high levels, it can often be detected, and some people can detect lower levels than others.

3. The purpose of the Potassium metabitsulfite is to kill off any wild yeast, bacteria, etc. in your must. This can be eliminated by simply heating your must to a temperature of 170degrees and letting just simmer on your stovetop for 30 minutes. Do not boil the must as to much heat will set the Pectin in the fruit making fermentation more difficult.

"Sulfur dioxide has three major functions in winemaking: to control undesirable organisms, to inhibit the browning enzymes, and to serve as an antioxidant" "Amerine and Singleton, Wine, an introduction for Americans". University of California Press. (page 98)

Simmering certain fruits can contribute to hazes in wine (which are often hard to clear), and will alter the taste of the finished product, often with a loss of the fruit taste.

Can you use bakers yeast to make wine? Of course, but every yeast works on the fruit a little different, yielding different taste and different alcohol levels. Wine makeing yeast is very in-expensive and the finished product is much more repeatable and predictable. Junk in, junk out. Good wine takes time and a quality yeast, Why waste your time, and fruit, using a poor quality yeast.

Some people like to ferment just the juice, and nothing but the juice. Sadly, not all fruits have the same amounts of nutrient for a good fermentation, and will often "stick" (stop fermenting before the sugar is converted to alcohol). I add a nutrient to many of the fruits I know are low and they NEVER stick!

I have found the major cause of a sticking fermentation to be the addition of to much sugar and to much water. I like to use as pure a juice as I can, even tho this will mean a lesser quantity of wine. I also like to add my sugars slowly, it the recipie calls for 4lbs of sugar, I will only add 2 lbs in the primary. Then another pound when racked into the carbouy, and then the other pound at the next racking. I fact, I have quit using sugar recommendations suggested in recipies completely. I just tastetest everytime I rack and add sugar according to my taste.​

Not true either. Winemakers do not add sugar incrementally. Sugar in the grape is (almost always) at the correct level prior to fermentation. Sometimes a winemaker (grape) will add another juice higher in sugar if his primary must is low. For the wine industry, it would be impractical and expensive to add sugar in this way.

If you use a hydrometer correctly, there should be no need to adjust sugar later in the fermentation - this could actually cause a wine to stick. Sugar added later may cause a wine to stick, then later, after bottling the wine may start to re-ferment and you end up with an exploded bottle (or many). This is a very dangerous thing to do. Sweetening a wine can best be done using a non fermentable sugar (like Splenda) OR by using Sorbitol (potassium sorbate) or other product to prevent refermentation. Also, it's much more difficult to determine the alcohol content if sugar is added during fermentation.

All my information comes from these sources:
Amerine and Singleton, Wine, an introduction for Americans. University of California Press.
"Winemaking Basics" C.S. Ough, DSc, MS (Dr. Ough was a faculty member of the Department of Viticulture and Enology at the University of Califonia at Davis for 41 years.
"The Complete Handbook of Winemaking" - the American Wine Society

(just to name a few; I have a lot more books in the library

)​

The nice thing about making wine as a hobby is that you are free to make it as you see fit. To suggest that the methods you described are the only correct methods and chemical use is completetly acceptable, just isnt right. I make my wine as a hobby and I choose to leave out the chemicals, Your suggestion that the sulfites can contribute to the the final taste of the wine is spot on, if you like the taste of sulfur, then the sulfite will enhance the taste more to your likeing. I dont like sulfur, sorry.

To say a wine maker doesnt add sugars in increments is laughable really. In fact. lots of recipies will tell you to do just that. I am sorry you have so many problems with stuck fermentations, may be that you need to experiment with your mix a little bit more. I will say you are correct that adding sugar in increments has it risk of restarting fermentation after botteling, but since I bottle no wine before its time, thats not a problem I have encountered. http://www.grapestompers.com/articles/chaptalize_wine.htm

As for the hazing of some fruit wines if heated. Like I said, if you boil the fruit or overheat it, you will cause the pectin in the fruits to set and become very hard to get good fermentation, and will cause hazing of the finished product. Again, its a hobby and one needs to experiment with how they heat their must. If you turn the heat up to boil, then expect hazing.​

 

[Totalcolour]

Quote:
Mudstopper, I'm not suggesting that it's the only way, or the right way to make wine. If you look back a couple of posts, notice my comment to 2overeasy000

"If you are making wines you like without chemicals, then go for it! Everyone has a style of their own, and we should all do what we enjoy, in our own way. Sometimes, there really isn't a right or wrong way."

And, I don't have "so many problems with stuck fermentations" I used the method you have described and got "2" stuck ones.

As for recipes, winemakers don't use recipes, they use formulas. The recipe books hobbyists use are more like cookbooks.

I worked in a winery for some years, and was married to a winemaker in the Napa Valley for 15 years. They certainly don't add sugar incrementally; although hobbyist books often recommend that method. The methods I'm talking about are ones that winemakers use. Us hobbyists can learn a lot from them. Or not, as we choose.

I'm certainly not trying to tell anyone that his or her ways are wrong; I'm simply trying to impart information that I have learned over the years, that may be helpful to others, and pointing out hazards that may occur by using certain methods.

In any event, the books I quoted, are those used in the major universities teaching oenology and viticulture. In my own, personal approach to winemaking, I chose to learn from those who have far more knowledge than I do, I could do far worse.

I do have some awards (U.S. Amateur Winemaking Competition) - so I guess I'm doing something right. Sorry the picture is bad, I'll try again in daylight.

The plaque was for best in show - I was really thrilled and suprised

I hope your winemaking efforts are just as successful.

 

[2overeasy000]

Quote:
If you are making wines you like without chemicals, then go for it! Everyone has a style of their own, and we should all do what we enjoy, in our own way. Sometimes, there really isn't a right or wrong way.

All I wanted to state, was that using chemicals, can be easier, and make more consistent wines, especially for the beginner. (Which you so correctly pointed out). When one is starting a new venture, success or failure can often determine whether or not a person will continue with said venture.

Chemicals aren't inherently bad. Our bodies are made up with them, and we ingest them every day from multiple sources, most of the time, unknowingly.

You have obviously made your winemaking into an art, without chemical aids, which is really an accomplishment.

For those who aren't as accomplished (YET!) the addition of chemicals may be a reasonable choice.

Carpe Vinum

Congrats on your success. In the future, if you think you have a Hydrogen Sulfide problem, you might look into Copper Sulphate and Ascorbic Acid.

Carpe Vinum!

 

[oesdog]

I am so getting lost in all this science stuff!
All I know is the two Demi-johns now have clearing stuff in and are standing on the floor in the Dinning room to settle - then we bottle!!!!!!!! Yuppie!!!!
I just hope they are good !!!!! The Beer is doing well too - its a monster rammed back in a keg with a load of books on top!! That of course is perfect if it turns out like the last Keg did!

Oesdog ( Not very science focused!) - more Alcohol challenged

meaning I can't drink it yet!

 

[Totalcolour]

Quote:
Thanks, and for the advice. I guess it was one of those times that I simply neglected the wine until it was too late. A little H2S is not usually a problem; this was a biggie! Wines low in amino acids often develop a light H2S aroma. Also, certain yeasts (Montrachet is notorious) may produce more H2S, so I now avoid those like the plague! (This only happens if the must has been sulfited though)

So, what wines are you currently making, if I may ask...?

 

[Totalcolour]

Quote:
In that case, it sounds to me like you just aren't making enough of it

(n.b. sometimes I think the science stuff is voodoo anyway)

 

[Totalcolour]

I noticed in several posts, people are spelling it "carbuoy" - is this an inside joke? Correct spelling is "Carboy"

It did make me smile though

 

[groundpecker]

A moonshine thread! The last thing i expected on byc