Livestock guardian dogs

[CASDOG1]

Lurchers are hunting dogs, NOT LGDs. They're bred to hunt & kill, not protect a territory. They're just as likely to kill your birds as they are to kill predators & it's a lot of work to make them livestock safe. And even if they are livestock safe, because they hunt rather than guard, they will chase predators into the next county, leaving your birds unprotected. Predators are smart & think nothing of sending in a decoy to lure the dogs off & sending in another team to make the kill. True LGDs are quick to learn this trick & will not leave the stock no matter how much they want to get the predator. I have both LGDs & sighthounds (Borzoi Azawakh, & Saluki) & while my hounds will absolutely kill a coyote (& have more than once) they will leave the livestock to do it. And while my own hounds have never chased my stock, I never leave them alone with them either so they never get the chance. Hunting dogs & guardian dogs are *very* different animals.

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Anna and the Thunder Mountain Gang
Woodruff, SC

 

[drake01]

I amazed that people have ever been able to keep there animals and not have them all slaughtered off by predators, must be every Tom dick and Harry that ever owned a few chickens had a true " livestock guardian" to keep the coyotes in check. People have used different dogs of all types mutts included to safely raise animals throughout history.

 

[centrarchid]

A Doberman cannot handle predators. It doesn't take nearly enough power to take down a human being that battling predators requires. Coyotes routinely kill pet dogs the size of Dobermans & German Shepherd Dogs. A 40 pound coyote will kill an 80 pound Doberman easily. Dobermans are also highly active while LGD breeds are not & thus require a lot more space, attention, & exercise than an LGD. LGDs aren't large so they can cover huge areas, they're large so they can resist injury in fights with multiple predators at a time. Dobermans are meant for human protection only & lack the power, toughness, & instincts to guard livestock from predators. They also can't live outdoors in cold or inclement weather & have no instinct for bonding with livestock.

There is a LOT of bad information out there about LGDs & why most dogs that are not of LGD breeds will not be able to perform as LGDs. Here is a list of traits you will find in all good LGDs. Remember, just because a dog is protective of you doesn't mean it is a good livestock guardian dog. They are not hunting or herding dogs, either. These traits below are ALL required for a good LGD. I wrote this for an educational group I run which exists to help people learn about LGDs, from selecting, raising, & training a pup to finding a good breeder or rescue to understand the many different breeds & why LGDs are different from other breeds of dogs.

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Myth #2) Any breed or mix of breeds will be a good LGD if it is raised with livestock from puppyhood.

This myth was propogated by a a well-known author & is a constant thorn in the side of experienced LGD folks. The fact is, while certain individual dogs of a non LGD breed or breeds may occasionally work out as a working livestock guardian, this in no way suggests that just any dog anywhere can do it. Breeds exist because people discovered the simple genetic truth that breeding like to like has a greater tendency to produce like. LGD breeds have been bred for many years, in some cases millenia, to have a particular set of traits that predispose them to be good at the specific task of living with livestock 24/7, without immediate human direction, & protecting them from all threats. These traits include:

*a powerful, athletic, & agile build, able to soak as well as dish out a great deal of damage
*thick, loose skin (thicker than any other canid) which is difficult to pierce
*a high territorial defense drive that causes them to stand their ground rather than flee from a threat
*a naturally calm, submissive demeanor around flighty prey animals
*a physical morphology which gives them a softer expression which also serves to make them less intimidating in appearance to livestock
*low prey drive
*an instinctive ability to evaluate threat level & respond accordingly
*an affinity for weak & small animals (including children)
*a harsh, all weather, double coat which protects them from heat, cold, injury, wetness, dirt, & debris
*the ability to think independently, problem solve, take quick stock of any situation, & make effective decisions at a moment's notice
*the instinct to conserve their energy so they are always ready to take action
*a lower metabolism that requires less food for their size

If it does not possess ALL of these traits, it is not an LGD.

~~~~
Anna & the Thunder Mountain Gang
Woodruff, SC

The some of the traits listed above are not the ideal for guarding poultry, especially when climate is not like in northern Europe. Most LGD's used to guard ruminants are neither fast or agile. Poultry will be victims of snatch and grab by canids in particular that will not stand and fight like a wolf or domestic dog. Additionally, smaller predators like foxes take more birds than the bigger animals, especially if all you have is a big dog patrolling that lacks speed and initiative.

 

[Bear Foot Farm]

Quote: Pretending those dogs are truly "guarding" the birds won't make it so,nor will calling them LGD's magically change their breeding

The term "LGD" has a specific meaning and all the yard dogs in the world won't change that.

Why not just admit they are exhibiting TERRITORIAL behavior, and "guarding" has nothing to do with it at all.

I know you know it true

http://www.lgd.org/

 

[zazouse]

That still doesn't make them well suited to "guarding" birds
LGD's are more active at might when the birds are asleep, and SHOULD be confined, while most birds free range.

Plus most of the breeds named on this thread are not even remotely "LGD's"
Yard dogs that don't kill birds are not really "guarding" them, and are NOT LGD's

That girl is on watch, she can smell the yote that has been lurking around, she is a true poultry guardian , I wished you were here to see her at work, mabe then you would understand that they can work well for guarding birds.

 

[centrarchid]

I suspect you won't even make an attempt

I will not make an attempt when only available information to challenge it is put forth by fanciers that do not have direct access to sources of information. If a historian from Turkey or the Caucus region were to step in I would give that a great deal more credibility. My interest has been in development of dogs as a whole. Many lines have been through periods of selection for one purpose then re-tasked for another which has occurred repeatedly. Many breeds are also results of crosses followed by lots of selective breeding which can also be detrimental. Other detrimental factors which almost certainly are at play with standard LGD's in this country has genetic bottlenecking and inbreeding without proper selection.



The recognition starts here that other dog breeds can be used for poultry guarding. It is time to drop the livestock (ruminant) only concept. When that it done it shall become apparent that current LGD's may not be as good as what could be developed through selection for performance with poultry. Allowing your take to prevail will obstruct making improvements. That would be very sad, especially if you do not employ dogs yourself with respect to poultry but rather invest all your efforts against those that are making an constructive effort.


From this point forward I will not use the term livestock guarding dog (LGD) with respect to my dogs in their current capacity with poultry. I will use the term poultry guarding dog (PGD). If you fail to recognize the utility of dogs for such a purpose, then I suggest you find another type of dope to smoke so you can actually see what is before you.

 

[Spanishchick]

Hi, this is my experience and not at all professional advise. I have a Belgian Malinois who attacked my chickens when they were new. He didn't hurt any of them because he's a Sheppard type dog but scared the hell out of them. The thing with sheep dogs like him is they bite the heals of the sheep so they tend to like to do that with the chickens. But now after a lot of time and time and time....time, he is a great do with them.
He found my 2 chickens today who were attacked by a hawk.
He's really smart, so a dog that is smart and you give time to train around the chickens every day and time is what I think the secret is.
Good luck.
BTW no strays will come around with a Malinois around.

 

[Spanishchick]

Hi just one correction I'm from barcelona and my grandmother (paternal) is from aturias. The GP is from the entire Pyenees mountain region which covers/forms the entire border between france and spain. Not a basque dog but used by the basques who live in between catalonia and asturias which is in great part mountains that cross over to france. Throughout the Pyrenees there are small towns with the ideal terrain for shepparding which date back to the medieval times.
The people tend to be very tough, they (we) are the most stubborn people of all of Spain, hence sometimes our not so great reputation, especially in politics. Amoungst ourselves we are not very forgiving. Maybe a trait of people from difficult climates. They would not think twice of leaving the dog with the livestock and never if rarely allowing the dog in the house. And like all members of the household, human or animal you are put on this earth to do a job and do it correctly. That tends to be a village mentality anyways. They are breed to watch any animal and people. My grandfather had one and they're very friendly. Don't forget the mastiff from aragon.
Otherwise great information.
ps there are a lot of cows and bulls in the fields, loose.

 

[SunnySkies]

Is it better for them somehow to wait on spaying? I took in some rescue kittens and the shelter spayed and neutered both of them at eight weeks old. I was concerned that was way too young, but I have always spayed and neutered my pets by six months.

Cats, no. Cats can be spayed and neutered early. I personally think 8 weeks is too young, but shelter medicine is different than general practice.

Evidence is mounting that large breed dogs that are altered early may be at higher risk for various cancers, orthopedic problems and other issues. My dog has a couple issues that letting her have one complete cycle will fix. However, it does increase her risk for mammary cancer.

My other concern is that I have working dogs. Altering them early changes their musculature. I want them to attain their full mass as much as possible.

I do NOT recommend delaying altering for all owners. It's a very individualized concern. Many of my owners cannot deal with intact dogs...we have too many unplanned pregnancies as it is among our patient base...so I am telling many owners to spay and neuter early. But for some, it can and does work.

 

[centrarchid]

Acreage you have is tight. Smaller dog would be less expensive but still you might do better with electrified poultry netting as the netting when properly used will stop most ground predators. Overall, you are small enough to be blessed with ability to protect with options not involving dogs that are the most expensive approach unless that are valued as companions or for hunting purposes as well. Consider investing in covered runs and chicken tractors to protect against raptors. I use dogs and fencing. Dogs are a must when spread out like I am but the fencing can provide immediate protection and has lower maintenance costs. With dogs starting from a pup you may require 1.5 to 2 years to get into working shape with some losses of birds caused by dog itself during that interval.