Need help! Color ID

[Urte]

Hi everybody!

I bought these guineas three months ago.
The seller said they were Buff and Buff Dundotte, and for what I´ve seen in the internet they looked like Buffs for me too.





Middle pic is the Buff male, other two pics are the Buff Dundotte females, not laying yet.

I read that with a Buff male, no matter what color female, the offspring daughters are Buff, and males are are either mother´s or any other color parents may be carriers.

12 days ago I hatched 6 chicks, parents are Pearl Grey hens (daughters of Royal Purple hen) mated to a buff male. The result of this crossing is: 1 Pearl Grey, 2 Pearl Grey pied, 2 Royal Purple and 1 Royal Purple pied.

Either what I read about Buff crossings is not certain, or my birds are not genetically Buff, or a third option being all 6 keets are male.



Pease if anyone can enlighten me about genetics it would be appreciated.

Are the birds Buff or they may be other color? Sorry about the blurry photos.


Regards
Urte

 

[R2elk]

Hi everybody!

I bought these guineas three months ago.
The seller said they were Buff and Buff Dundotte, and for what I´ve seen in the internet they looked like Buffs for me too.





Middle pic is the Buff male, other two pics are the Buff Dundotte females, not laying yet.

I read that with a Buff male, no matter what color female, the offspring daughters are Buff, and males are are either mother´s or any other color parents may be carriers.

12 days ago I hatched 6 chicks, parents are Pearl Grey hens (daughters of Royal Purple hen) mated to a buff male. The result of this crossing is: 1 Pearl Grey, 2 Pearl Grey pied, 2 Royal Purple and 1 Royal Purple pied.

Either what I read about Buff crossings is not certain, or my birds are not genetically Buff, or a third option being all 6 keets are male.



Pease if anyone can enlighten me about genetics it would be appreciated.

Are the birds Buff or they may be other color? Sorry about the blurry photos.


Regards
Urte

It is almost impossible to tell anything from such poor photos. I cannot tell for sure, but it doesn't look like any of them are buff dundottes. Buff dundottes are fully dotted and none of these look to be fully dotted.

http://guineas.com/colorchart/color/buffdundottenew.jpg

The buff dundottes that I have seen do not have any gray (blue) feathers on them and it looks like your guineas have some gray feathers.

I don't know what you have but don't believe them to be buff dundottes or even buffs.

http://guineas.com/colorchart/

 

[Urte]

It is almost impossible to tell anything from such poor photos. I cannot tell for sure, but it doesn't look like any of them are buff dundottes. Buff dundottes are fully dotted and none of these look to be fully dotted.

http://guineas.com/colorchart/color/buffdundottenew.jpg

The buff dundottes that I have seen do not have any gray (blue) feathers on them and it looks like your guineas have some gray feathers.

I don't know what you have but don't believe them to be buff dundottes or even buffs.

http://guineas.com/colorchart/

I took some better photos!!

Buff cock




Buff Dundotte hen





Pied Buff Dundotte hen

She looks lighter than the other non pied hens.


Hope now its better to ID them.

 

[R2elk]

I took some better photos!!

Buff cock




Buff Dundotte hen





Pied Buff Dundotte hen

She looks lighter than the other non pied hens.


Hope now its better to ID them.

I think your Buff male looks more like a Blonde than a Buff.

http://guineas.com/colorchart/color/blonde.jpg

Buff males tend to be really light colored.

http://guineas.com/colorchart/color/olchet_buff_male2.jpg

Your Dundotte hens may or may not actually be Buff Dundottes. I suspect that your Buff Dundotte hen in the photo is exhibiting the effects of the Dark Shade Variance gene (DSV) which is why she has some feathers that resemble a Brown more so than a Buff Dundotte.

Your pied hen explains where your pied keets come from.

"I read that with a Buff male, no matter what color female, the offspring daughters are Buff, and males are are either mother´s or any other color parents may be carriers."

I think that you are misunderstanding this concept. The claim is that only one copy of the buff gene is required for the female to exhibit the color and that males need 2 copies of the buff gene to exhibit the color. Just because a hen has one copy of a buff gene, does not mean that other factors will not stop her from exhibiting the buff color. For example an Opaline has both a buff gene and a blue gene and can be either male or female and does not exhibit the buff color.

I get Royal Purple keets from a Chocolate male breeding a Coral Blue hen. These Royal Purples get one blue gene from their mother and 1 buff gene from their father. They also get a Dark Shade Variance gene their father. None of the literature that I have read on colors would indicate that Royal Purples have a blue and a buff gene.

Hope some of this helps.

 

[Urte]

I think your Buff male looks more like a Blonde than a Buff.

http://guineas.com/colorchart/color/blonde.jpg

Buff males tend to be really light colored.

http://guineas.com/colorchart/color/olchet_buff_male2.jpg

Your Dundotte hens may or may not actually be Buff Dundottes. I suspect that your Buff Dundotte hen in the photo is exhibiting the effects of the Dark Shade Variance gene (DSV) which is why she has some feathers that resemble a Brown more so than a Buff Dundotte.

Your pied hen explains where your pied keets come from.

"I read that with a Buff male, no matter what color female, the offspring daughters are Buff, and males are are either mother´s or any other color parents may be carriers."

I think that you are misunderstanding this concept. The claim is that only one copy of the buff gene is required for the female to exhibit the color and that males need 2 copies of the buff gene to exhibit the color. Just because a hen has one copy of a buff gene, does not mean that other factors will not stop her from exhibiting the buff color. For example an Opaline has both a buff gene and a blue gene and can be either male or female and does not exhibit the buff color.

I get Royal Purple keets from a Chocolate male breeding a Coral Blue hen. These Royal Purples get one blue gene from their mother and 1 buff gene from their father. They also get a Dark Shade Variance gene their father. None of the literature that I have read on colors would indicate that Royal Purples have a blue and a buff gene.

Hope some of this helps.

Yes it was helpful.

So you are more inclined to say that I have a Blonde male and Brown hens?
If thats the case, could you please share with me your knowledge about this color mutations and genetics.


Let me see if I got it right, can a buff dundotte be Buff Dundotte + DSV gene? Or a Buff Dundotte with the DSV gene is called Brown?


Watching this color chart http://guineas.com/colorchart I can appreciate that every line is a color type with its three possible combinations of dotting, right?
My questions are:
1- How come that from the same breeder I got a Blonde male but Brown females? If the male is Blonde, hens should be Cinnamon, or if the hens are Brown shouldn't the male be Chocolate?
2- Is Blonde color a Chocolate + Blue gene that dilutes it?


When you say:
Quote: Then if you mate a Royal Purple male to a Buff hen you should be getting 50-50% Royal Purple and Buff keets. Have you tried that crossing to prove that there is a Buff gene involved in Royal Purple color?

Sorry for that many questions, I know genetics isn't 2+2=4, but I want to understand it the best I can.

Regards

 

[R2elk]

Yes it was helpful.

So you are more inclined to say that I have a Blonde male and Brown hens?
If thats the case, could you please share with me your knowledge about this color mutations and genetics.


Let me see if I got it right, can a buff dundotte be Buff Dundotte + DSV gene? Or a Buff Dundotte with the DSV gene is called Brown?


Watching this color chart http://guineas.com/colorchart I can appreciate that every line is a color type with its three possible combinations of dotting, right?
My questions are:
1- How come that from the same breeder I got a Blonde male but Brown females? If the male is Blonde, hens should be Cinnamon, or if the hens are Brown shouldn't the male be Chocolate?
2- Is Blonde color a Chocolate + Blue gene that dilutes it?


When you say:
Then if you mate a Royal Purple male to a Buff hen you should be getting 50-50% Royal Purple and Buff keets. Have you tried that crossing to prove that there is a Buff gene involved in Royal Purple color?

Sorry for that many questions, I know genetics isn't 2+2=4, but I want to understand it the best I can.

Regards

You have to remember that this is just my opinion based on looking at your photographs. Seeing the birds in person might result in a different opinion.

I believe that a buff dundotte with a DSV gene would be a brown.

Since I don't know what the breeder actually has, I don't have the answer. I do know that many people don't actually know what they have. I have run across at least one case where a breeder (probably a backyard breeder) was selling pearl gray guineas as royal purples because that breeder and his buyers didn't realize that royal purples are only partially dotted and he was selling people fully dotted birds.

Theoretically a blonde has 2 buff genes and no blue genes. I suspect there is very little difference between a blonde and a buff other than the claim that a blonde is slightly darker than a buff which is described as being nearly an off white. Chocolate is said to be two buff genes with 2 DSV genes except in the claimed instance of a chocolate hen possibly having only one buff gene and still being able to express the color.

In the case of my Royal Purple (no claim being made that this applies to all royal purples), she was produced from a mating of a Chocolate male with a Coral Blue hen. She had to get one buff gene from her father and one blue gene from her mother. She got a DSV gene from her father and possibly one from her mother. She got a partial dotting gene from her father and a recessive no dotting gene from her mother. The dotting gene was shown by crossing her with a Powder Blue male which produced some Violet keets. They could only have been produced if she had a hidden no dotting gene which could have only come from her mother.

I can't mate my royal purple with a buff because I don't have any buffs. Breeding her to her father did produce more chocolates and royal purples.

I have not read anywhere that indicates that royal purples have anything other than the same dominant gray color gene that the pearl grays have. The only way that my royal purple could fall into that category is if there was a color mutation happening since the dominant gray gene would have prevented the recessive buff genes and the recessive blue genes of the parents from being exhibited.. I could believe in a color mutation if I had gotten a single royal purple but there are royal purples in every batch of eggs from my chocolate male and coral blue hen.

Sorry I can't remember the poster but there is a poster on here that always points out that the color genetics of guineas have not been researched well enough for anyone to know what the outcomes of any breedings will be as far as color goes.

Predicting the probable color outcomes from heterozygous color genes in guineas is nothing more than a guessing game. There is an old thread in this forum about color genetics that contains a guinea color calculator. I never kept track of it because it is inaccurate. It would predict fully dotted offspring from partially dotted and no dotting parents which barring a mutation is not possible. A dominant gene will not remain hidden in the presence of recessive genes. There were color errors also.

Have fun trying to figure out your colors and the colors of your keets.

 

[Urte]

Wow! Lots of info.

Thank you very much.
This is what I love about poultry, the challenges and fun of breeding when you have no idea what you may get.

I just like to call things for what they are, thats why I'm so desperately trying to ID what color mutation my guineas are.

I guess that keets might help determine a bit more accurately if they are Buff, Blonde or Chocolate, Blonde is the only male, so as soon as brown hens start laying those keets will define what color they are.

Another final question, how do I select against Pied? I really don't like pieds, just keeping only non pied birds I will eliminate it? If there is a pied gene it will express right? Its not a recessive gene.

Regards
Urte

 

[R2elk]

Wow! Lots of info.

Thank you very much.
This is what I love about poultry, the challenges and fun of breeding when you have no idea what you may get.

I just like to call things for what they are, thats why I'm so desperately trying to ID what color mutation my guineas are.

I guess that keets might help determine a bit more accurately if they are Buff, Blonde or Chocolate, Blonde is the only male, so as soon as brown hens start laying those keets will define what color they are.

Another final question, how do I select against Pied? I really don't like pieds, just keeping only non pied birds I will eliminate it? If there is a pied gene it will express right? Its not a recessive gene.

Regards
Urte

The W (white gene) in the U.S. is in a different location than are the other color genes. If 2 W genes are present, the guinea will be white and all other color genes and dotting genes will be suppressed. If your guinea looks white but has dotting, it is not a white guinea but instead it is one of the other light colored guineas such as an Opaline or Porcelain. Ivory guineas can also be mistaken for whites.

If one W gene is present, this will cause the Pied condition.

If you don't want pieds, eliminate any pieds or whites from your breeding pool.

In my opinion the light colors do not look great as pieds but the darker colors such as pearl grays and royal purples can make stunning looking pieds.

I suspect that Pintos are directly related to pieds but have not seen any genetic color information for them.

 

[Urte]

Great!! Thanks a lot.

I have some Royal Purples pied keets, I'll keep them because I've never seen Pied Royals, I may like them, but in general I prefer solid colored birds.

Thanks again!
Any further questions I'll come ask you again if its ok.

 

[R2elk]

Great!! Thanks a lot.

I have some Royal Purples pied keets, I'll keep them because I've never seen Pied Royals, I may like them, but in general I prefer solid colored birds.

Thanks again!
Any further questions I'll come ask you again if its ok.

I will attempt to answer to the best of my ability.

Good luck and enjoy your guineas.