Pilgrim Geese thread

[livininbrazil]

What did you cross with the Pilgrim to get the one in your avatar? I can really see the Pilgrim in her. The coloring reminds me of some of the pictures of Holddereads Oregon Mini Geese. He has Pilgrim type, belted, and Saddle-backed as well as 6 non auto-sexing colors in the mini's. Yours looks a lot like the belted ones that are auto-sexing which is why I am asking. I am guessing that the belted are just pilgrim color type with a gene for a white breast because of the colorings/patterns being so similar. I have a vague memory that there was some sort of wild breed that had the belting that managed to get bred in but can't find any info on it any more. It would be interesting to see if you can hold that belting as well as the auto-sexing for future generations.

I crossed him with a 'white' goose, but she´s actually spot gene, but it´s blind, so she just looks white. I´m planning to breed one of the young males (photo) back to his pied aunties to see what happens, and I´ll breed this female back to one of the results of that the year after. I have 11 that resulted from this mating, and the same pair are about to start breeding again soon.
The boys have dark blue eyes, the girls brown. That´s the only 'auto-sexing' bit about them, though. and the females have very similar light grey colouring like the pilgrim females, including white developing around the eyes. None of the males has this. Most of the 11 have pied colouring, that is, white flights and white chest, (some of them have white, others have off-white like the dilute gene). I´m very intrigued at what will come of these in the next few generations. I´ve just had a look at the belted geese. they´re very similar, yes. Some of my young females have white in their necks, too, but no white males were produced. Young gander. Blue eyes, white belt, white flights.

 

[Tivona]

Tivona, what area on Craig's List? I need to find someone who might still have eggs that are willing to ship them. I have checked everywhere I can think of here and have found 2 breeders in the whole southeast. And one of them scares me because of negative comments posted about them when I google them.

I got hatching eggs from Brown Fox Farms, too. She is great to deal with. Unfortunately, we had an incubator issue and lost all 6 of our Pilgrim eggs. I was determined that I would eliminate as much incubator risk as I could so I ordered a GQF Sportsman 1502. Now to get lucky enough to find someone who still has girls laying this late in the season.

Oregon Coast. Try a search and a couple will show up. I know there are others in my area as well but egg season seems to be past here from what I am hearing. Everyone has either a goose sitting or babies. I know that sometimes people will get a second batch with some breeds, not sure on the Pilgrims though, and there are always a few parents that are later so its at least worth checking and asking. I would suggest hurrying though if you need eggs. Not going to be many available unless your willing to wait till next year.

 

[Tivona]

I crossed him with a 'white' goose, but she´s actually spot gene, but it´s blind, so she just looks white. I´m planning to breed one of the young males (photo) back to his pied aunties to see what happens, and I´ll breed this female back to one of the results of that the year after. I have 11 that resulted from this mating, and the same pair are about to start breeding again soon.
The boys have dark blue eyes, the girls brown. That´s the only 'auto-sexing' bit about them, though. and the females have very similar light grey colouring like the pilgrim females, including white developing around the eyes. None of the males has this. Most of the 11 have pied colouring, that is, white flights and white chest, (some of them have white, others have off-white like the dilute gene). I´m very intrigued at what will come of these in the next few generations. I´ve just had a look at the belted geese. they´re very similar, yes. Some of my young females have white in their necks, too, but no white males were produced. Young gander. Blue eyes, white belt, white flights.

Very interesting. I know nothing about the Normandy Geese. I did a search and all I found was feathersite.com showing a female that looked much like a Shetland. They described the males as being like the Pilgrim ganders in coloring. Am I searching the right breed?

I know I have read some genes that are sex-linked can't be mixed with any others and still work as an auto-sexing. I would think though that if you can get the offspring with the auto-sexing genes in them and cross them with others that you've bred and have the auto-sexing genes you might be able to have some with the auto-sexing with the belt. They wouldn't be pure Pilgrim but I am sure many would love them. You'll have to be very choosy as to what you keep to breed though. The belted Mini's are auto-sexing as I understand so at least the coloring is possible. My guess is Holderread bred pure Pilgrim blood into his mini's. He is the one who seemed to really bring the Pilgrims back here in the USA, then he sold his Pilgrim stock. At least some went to Metzer farms and now they sell them. Point is Holderreads had great Pilgrim stock to bred into his mini's to get that auto-sexing. Something else added the belt, so the belting gene and the Pilgrims coloring genes are not at odds, they work with each other. Then again I really am only going by gut feeling and a lot of reading on the auto-sexing. I have no real expertise. Please feel free to ignore me and my crazy ramblings of thought.

 

[livininbrazil]

Very interesting. I know nothing about the Normandy Geese. I did a search and all I found was feathersite.com showing a female that looked much like a Shetland. They described the males as being like the Pilgrim ganders in coloring. Am I searching the right breed?

I know I have read some genes that are sex-linked can't be mixed with any others and still work as an auto-sexing. I would think though that if you can get the offspring with the auto-sexing genes in them and cross them with others that you've bred and have the auto-sexing genes you might be able to have some with the auto-sexing with the belt. They wouldn't be pure Pilgrim but I am sure many would love them. You'll have to be very choosy as to what you keep to breed though. The belted Mini's are auto-sexing as I understand so at least the coloring is possible. My guess is Holderread bred pure Pilgrim blood into his mini's. He is the one who seemed to really bring the Pilgrims back here in the USA, then he sold his Pilgrim stock. At least some went to Metzer farms and now they sell them. Point is Holderreads had great Pilgrim stock to bred into his mini's to get that auto-sexing. Something else added the belt, so the belting gene and the Pilgrims coloring genes are not at odds, they work with each other. Then again I really am only going by gut feeling and a lot of reading on the auto-sexing. I have no real expertise. Please feel free to ignore me and my crazy ramblings of thought.

Hi Tivona. Goodness, if we lived near each other, the conversatons would go on and on about possibiblities.

Well, the two geese I have that are like Normandies I bought from someone who said that her males are always white and the females always grey and white. That was all she knew about it. So, I figured they must be auto-sexing and brought two females home with me.

Now, my pilgrim-type geese (I say "type" because the geese only have a single lobe, more like the cotton-patch, and the ganders have very light grey feathering on them, and fly readily, but cotton-patch must have pink bills, while mine have orange-and-pink), are quite a bit smaller than a lot of others, of course, but these 'Normandies' are really small, could even be more like Shetlands, they´re the same size as my muscovy drake. Actually, he could be even bigger.

Of course, as you know, the auto-sexing geese probably have been around for a thousand years, more or less, mainly have come from the UK and france, (which may have arrived there from Scandinavia) and then developed in local areas into different breeds, like West of England, Shetland, Normandy, etc. There is such a lot of European influence here in Brazil, that there´s every possibility that these are descendants of Normandies or Shetlands. Also years back, there were so many coffee fields here and cotton fields here, that the geese may well be cotton-patch or pilgrim-types, but developed in their own way, still keeping the auto-sexing. I do know that some people here have closed flocks, being that way for many years. The folks here simply refer to these auto-sexing geese as 'common geese', just like in Europe such a long time back.... MY crazy ramblings of thought!

I´m looking forward to experimenting with them, as I think you may be right, in that some of them, having the spectacles, etc, could well have the auto-sexing genes. I don´t see any signs in the males, though, I think they´ll just produce pieds, so I´m planning to let the 'belted' females breed back again with the young pilgrim-type ganders and see what happens.
I read the minis were also developed by using Romans. Ramble, ramble.....

 

[livininbrazil]

Normandy goose that I found on the internet.
Normandy trio that I found on the internet.
Flock of Normandies that I found on the internet, look so much like the West of Englands.
My two females that I think look like Normandies.

Very interesting. I know nothing about the Normandy Geese. I did a search and all I found was feathersite.com showing a female that looked much like a Shetland. They described the males as being like the Pilgrim ganders in coloring. Am I searching the right breed?

I know I have read some genes that are sex-linked can't be mixed with any others and still work as an auto-sexing. I would think though that if you can get the offspring with the auto-sexing genes in them and cross them with others that you've bred and have the auto-sexing genes you might be able to have some with the auto-sexing with the belt. They wouldn't be pure Pilgrim but I am sure many would love them. You'll have to be very choosy as to what you keep to breed though. The belted Mini's are auto-sexing as I understand so at least the coloring is possible. My guess is Holderread bred pure Pilgrim blood into his mini's. He is the one who seemed to really bring the Pilgrims back here in the USA, then he sold his Pilgrim stock. At least some went to Metzer farms and now they sell them. Point is Holderreads had great Pilgrim stock to bred into his mini's to get that auto-sexing. Something else added the belt, so the belting gene and the Pilgrims coloring genes are not at odds, they work with each other. Then again I really am only going by gut feeling and a lot of reading on the auto-sexing. I have no real expertise. Please feel free to ignore me and my crazy ramblings of thought.

Just an interesting little point here...Grow (Pilgrims) reckoned that if you mix solid with auto-sexing, you´ll lose it, but there is the reasoning that auto-sexing did come from somewhere, and can be developed....
There´s an interesting article that can be found on the internet by Craig Russell on this stuff.

 

[Tivona]

Normandy goose that I found on the internet.
Normandy trio that I found on the internet.
Flock of Normandies that I found on the internet, look so much like the West of Englands.
My two females that I think look like Normandies.

Just an interesting little point here...Grow (Pilgrims) reckoned that if you mix solid with auto-sexing, you´ll lose it, but there is the reasoning that auto-sexing did come from somewhere, and can be developed....
There´s an interesting article that can be found on the internet by Craig Russell on this stuff.

Thanks for finding those pictures! I was sort of striking out when I searched. So I am seeing something I think. Pilgrims, Shetlands, West of England (another bred I am in love with, just can't get here) and the Normandy and Cotton Patch all have a solid pattern gene and a dilution gene. The double dilution gives the white males.

Have you seen this page? The combination of solid pattern (Sp+) plus dilution (Sd) has produced the autosexing breed known as Pilgrim, in which males are white and females are gray. The genotype of the male is Sp+/Sp+ Sd/Sd and of the female Sp+/-Sd/-. Its one of the things I found when researching Pilgrims genetics. They also talk about the white breast patch which they call (Wb) on the page. Unfortunately the gene calculator doesn't have any pictures of the white breast gene. You can add custom genes in but it will say "Sorry, no pic yet". Still you can get an idea of what a cross will produce. The trouble I had was trying to figure out what I wanted to put into the calculator. Ramble, ramble.

 

[livininbrazil]

Thanks for finding those pictures! I was sort of striking out when I searched. So I am seeing something I think. Pilgrims, Shetlands, West of England (another bred I am in love with, just can't get here) and the Normandy and Cotton Patch all have a solid pattern gene and a dilution gene. The double dilution gives the white males.

Have you seen this page? The combination of solid pattern (Sp+) plus dilution (Sd) has produced the autosexing breed known as Pilgrim, in which males are white and females are gray. The genotype of the male is Sp+/Sp+ Sd/Sd and of the female Sp+/-Sd/-. Its one of the things I found when researching Pilgrims genetics. They also talk about the white breast patch which they call (Wb) on the page. Unfortunately the gene calculator doesn't have any pictures of the white breast gene. You can add custom genes in but it will say "Sorry, no pic yet". Still you can get an idea of what a cross will produce. The trouble I had was trying to figure out what I wanted to put into the calculator. Ramble, ramble.

Like this? This female looks so much like my cross-breeds here, except mine have more white on their faces.

 

[livininbrazil]

Like this? This female looks so much like my cross-breeds here, except mine have more white on their faces.

p.s. I´ve had a quick look at the link, looks really interesting. I´ve put it on Word so I can print it off for a good read. I´ve got loads of stuff on word to print off!

 

[Tivona]

Yep! That is sort of what I was thinking. Very pretty, the white crescent gene is really showing. That the picture says Pilgrim is interesting. The white breast would considered a breed fault for Pilgrims but its not affecting the auto-sexing. I suspect that the one in the picture is a young girl still waiting to get some white on her face.

Like this? This female looks so much like my cross-breeds here, except mine have more white on their faces.

Yep! That is sort of what I was thinking. Very pretty, the white crescent gene is really showing. That the picture says Pilgrim is interesting. The white breast would considered a breed fault for Pilgrims but its not affecting the auto-sexing. I suspect that the one in the picture is a young girl still waiting to get some white on her face.

 

[livininbrazil]

Yep! That is sort of what I was thinking. Very pretty, the white crescent gene is really showing. That the picture says Pilgrim is interesting. The white breast would considered a breed fault for Pilgrims but its not affecting the auto-sexing. I suspect that the one in the picture is a young girl still waiting to get some white on her face.
Yep! That is sort of what I was thinking. Very pretty, the white crescent gene is really showing. That the picture says Pilgrim is interesting. The white breast would considered a breed fault for Pilgrims but its not affecting the auto-sexing. I suspect that the one in the picture is a young girl still waiting to get some white on her face.

Yes, probably a young one, though mine are only 6 months and already have the white showing. I know the ideal Pilgrim is for no white, but then that´s just the preferred thing for that particular breed, but I find it rather limiting, as beyond that, the colour ranges are so interesting. Like the English-bred 'Pilgrims' tend to have a lot more white on them than the American ones, I can only guess that maybe they have more recent West of England in them, which the Pilgrims most likely do anyway, as that´s most probably their origin, but the American ones, of course, have been more refined in this way (no extra white). It´s just so interesting. I shall keep a young pil gander back to put to a couple of the gals to see what happens, but have to wait another year yet for a good result, as they´re so young.