Pretty sure I'm getting scammed by an eBay seller.

[Tankueray]

I won an auction for 6 Ayam Ketawa eggs last night. The seller appeared to have good feedback and is located in OK. They had the normal blurbs in their description about not being responsible for USPS delays or mishandling, hatch not guaranteed, etc. Although it did seem a little harsh, it was pretty on par with other egg sellers, so I didn't think anything of it. Estimated delivery was next Tuesday, but that's eBay's calculation, so I also had no problem there either. As soon as I won and paid, I sent a message as requested by the seller to give my phone number and ask the PO to hold for pickup. I also asked if they'd ship out Monday, right? (It's Easter weekend, I'd like them to ship out Monday so they're not stuck in a warehouse or on a truck. From their location to mine, it's a max 2 day shipment, sometimes even one day.) Thus far, I wasn't concerned about anything....

I get a response about 30 min. later that says, "USPS has really went down hill, you pay for 2 to 3 day shipping, but it don't normally happen." and telling me that I'll get it probably on Tuesday, along with letting them sit for 12-24 hours before incubation*. No offer nor even acknowledgement of the request to hold it. My response: "So you're not going to wait until Monday? That will significantly reduce the viability of the embryos to sit in USPS warehouses over the weekend." Their response came this morning: "They don't set in the ware houses all weekend, they will be in transit."

(*They'll already be at least 5 days old when I get them, and they told me to leave them out for another 2 days?)

What?

(Even going from them to OKC to Dallas to me with all the processing and distribution center stops along the way is not even 8 hours worth of road time. If it was shipped Monday morning, there's still a real chance I'd get it Tuesday, but definitely Wednesday.)

Now, I thought that I sent a response to that saying that I've actually been to the warehouses (processing centers) and that I was surprised at their lack of concern or acknowledgement of my request to hold until Monday, but it doesn't seem to be found in my app, email, or the desktop, so maybe it didn't go through (I was using the app). And during the writing of that response, I got a pop-up that the package had been received by the originating post office.

Am I getting screwed by someone not selling legitimate eggs? I mean, it doesn't really seem like they have the ethics of someone breeding rare birds. It also seems like a good scam, considering that there are so few eggs in the auction, shipped eggs often don't hatch well, and neither do the rarer breeds. How many sellers are doing that I wonder?

If you want to know who it is, they have an auction up right now. Just look for that breed in that location, you can't miss it.

 

[Tankueray]

Well nevermind, I wasn't done. I got a message saying, "Send them back, I will refund your money, its not worth the hard ship. I don't need the money. I would not send out bad eggs."

Again, when an honest person is accused of something they want to correct or clear up the accusation with explanation. That's why cops accuse people of things they didn't do to get them to talking and eventually slip up and confess to something they did do. Someone not taking full responsibility for their actions deflects and projects. They also have an increasingly hard time controlling their emotions when presented with someone that is calm, logical, and even empathetic; because they know they've been dishonest in some way and do not feel like they deserve someone being nice to them.

Up until now, I never at any time implied that I wanted or asked for a refund or replacement of the eggs. (Because I understand the risks of shipped eggs, like every auction says I should before bidding.)

While I was typing out a response saying that they're already in the incubator, taking them out now is morally objectionable, and that if the purpose was to make me pay for shipping, I could either pay shipping for a set of replacements or I could send them back after they'd failed incubation.... He (within minutes of the first message) issued a refund and sent a message saying he'd sent a refund and to please send the eggs back.

Here's my response:
"I never asked for a refund. As I stated before, they were already placed into the incubator. I do not have the required authorizations to ship live animals or biologically active materials outside of the State of Texas. Again, a little bit of patience and effective communication would have worked better here."

-----------------------------------------------
I'll be happy to send them back after they've failed incubation and have been rendered biologically inert, but morally I won't knowingly kill a baby animal, and legally I don't think the USPS would be happy with them smelling or potentially exploding from bacteria while "in transit". So I guess he waits.

This is absolutely not how I wanted any of this to unfold, and it pains me that this guy's poor interpersonal skills probably will lead him to believe that I scammed him instead of learning how to be a better seller and more effective communicator.

Or, he really was the scammer and didn't like that I had figured it out.

 

[Tankueray]

Because someone might eventually find this thread while looking for advice in a similar situation, here's what I can offer. If you didn't read the previous posts, I've been selling non-chicken related things online since 2008, so this commentary is from both sides of the gavel.

Obviously look at the seller's feedback - including every negative or neutral. The feedback percentage score is only good for the past 12 months, so a history of negatives or neutrals may not show up. Compare the most recent feedback as seller (click the tab) with the number of completed items. Like me in this situation, they may not leave negative (or any) feedback if both parties walk away in disgust. Especially for things like hatching eggs, if there are a lot more completed (in green) listings than matching feedback, that could be a red flag. (That 12 month thing is gamed all the time by sellers now, BTW.)

How much of their total number of feedbacks is as a seller and not a buyer? How long are the gaps in their listings for sale vs. the items they seem to be selling now? This is super important for a listing on something you're positive is too good to be true. Hacked accounts that have never sold anything but some garage sale stuff years ago will suddenly have hundreds of listings for the weirdest, yet most expensive items in certain niches for pennies on the dollar. Look at the "ships from" location of those weird items vs. the normal ones, often it will be different and the description will provide an email for contact rather than ebay messaging. (If it does have an email in the listing, it could mean that the ebay account got hacked but the associated email didn't. It's worth sending the seller a message through ebay saying that it appears that their ebay account was hacked, because they also get a copy of that message to their email.)

Sellers haven't been allowed to leave negative feedback for buyers for a long time. Any implications or threats to the contrary are a red flag. (I have it set up to provide positive feedback as soon as the seller pays, I guess I hadn't really thought about things for which people might give me negative feedback for and I'd need to defend myself.)

Look at their history (completed items) more closely. Are they selling a listing for 20+ hatching eggs each in multiple breeds every day? How the heck do they have 1.) that many fertile chickens given the photos on the listing, 2.) that much time to properly collect, package, and ship every day, and 3.) does their time as a seller, feedback score, description, actual sales history, and photos reflect that kind of volume? If someone's pumping out eggs like that and they don't have something else going on like being a commercial hatchery or listing their accomplishments or NPIP/etc. certifications...what do they call the poultry equivalent of a puppy farm?

Look at their other listings and past listing descriptions, even for things that aren't the thing you're buying. Do they have words or phrases that are plagiarized from other seller's listings, are inflammatory, accusatory (against USPS or the buyer), or already defensive before you even bid? Basically, "you're buying my promise of a genuine item, sight unseen, with no guarantees, no refunds, and no whining. It'll almost certainly get broken in transit by the inept USPS, and you're an idiot and don't know how to hatch so they're going to be bad anyway. NO REFUNDS, I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE, PLACE BLAME ON SOMEONE/THING ELSE HERE. If you don't get a hatch, tough luck. You MUST pay immediately or I'll file against you for non-payment. You're agreeing to this and you can't complain one bit. If you don't like it, don't bid <--- Oh wait, not a single one of them has that line.

Now most sellers have some version of the things above, of course they have to for people who think hatching is some perfect operation every single time (i.e. people that have never hatched). By default, being a member of this forum probably makes you smarter than the average buyer, because you're here to learn and have been doing just that, therefore you may not need to be accosted with all that scolding in the description; but the difference is whether the seller's tone is one of "everyone's an idiot" or "understand that this is hard and your hatch won't be perfect." People with kind hearts and honesty can also be very strong in their wording, and it shows in statements like if there's a problem to message them, but not stating outright a refund or replacement. Dealing with entitlement can make you very jaded as a seller, and asking for help rather than demanding satisfaction will go a long way to both of you walking away happy.

I did actually buy from someone that was honest enough to state up front that they did NOT come from a smoke free home. That's some Moxie right there, I'm in! As a former smoker, I'll probably turn green when I open the box, but also knowing the stigma that it carries and the vulnerability hidden behind the tough facade of actually writing that out in the listing.... Anyone willing to put that out there is hopefully honest and reasonable.

For Sellers:
Commenters in this thread have a good point about packaging: https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/small-hatchery-seeking-advice.1435351/
If eggs are broken in shipping with no obvious damage to the box, your packaging is at fault, figure it out and do better.

That thread and mine also remind me of something else. Not to keep touting BYC, but if the person that you feel is acting poorly isn't a member of this forum, what rock have they been hiding under? If her buyer would have been a member here, she would've most certainly tried to recruit her flying monkeys against the seller here instead of Facebook and Etsy. If my seller were a member here, he would've probably run across this thread; and all of us would've been responded to by people making logical arguments and offering reasonable suggestions to resolve the matter. Or even members offering to assist in negotiating a solution privately, because that's how this place rolls, everyone here gives a crap!

Also as a seller I can tell you that all the warnings and threats in the description mean very little when it comes to a buyer making a claim to eBay or PayPal (and mean absolutely nothing to Amazon). Take pictures as you package it and of the completed packaging to send in as comparison to the buyer's photos and have long, calm conversations with your buyer if they're unhappy. eBay, PayPal, and Amazon all require the buyer to contact you first and you have a limited time to respond before they open a case. Your clear description and wording (that doesn't violate the ToS, which some of the hatching egg wording does) are the only leg you'll have to stand on in a dispute where the "customer is always right" in the eyes of the platform. Also keep your wits about you when responding to eBay, PP, and Amazon.

Example: I've only ever had three refund requests. One was before shipment, one was an Amazon buyer trying to get a broken product returned as the one I sent them (those pictures sure do come in handy - it was the wrong color), and the most recent was a woman in her 40s from another country where the custom is to make the customer happy no matter what. (Seriously, but let's call it Karenopolis for fun anyway.) She's seeking an advanced degree (her third one) and bought my product on eBay (two choices, say fire and water, clearly not the same thing, water was out of stock, so she bought fire) in order to use in an experiment for a grade. I suspect that she knew that she needed water, but bought fire knowing it was a different thing anyway. She didn't ask her professor or me if it could be used as a substitute for water, and waited over 2 months to complete the assignment. She attempted to use the product in the experiment, physically altered it in doing so, rendering it unusable for resale. She sent me a message telling me all this and requested that I send her water instead. For free.

I said water was out of stock when you bought fire, it's still out of stock, I cannot send you any. She told me that I should buy some from someone else and send it to her. Um, no. She starts harassing me via my website email for days, sometimes sending an email every ten minutes and expecting an immediate response. I offered a discount on the replacement item (I did actually have some, just not for resale) or a pro-rated, partial refund with the return of the damaged product. Note, everywhere my listings are no refunds or unused with restocking fee. She was mad because "I wasn't being like every other merchant (everywhere I guess); I must make things right and I have to provide her with the product she wanted" Again, not in this country lady. You ordered fire, you received fire, you admitted it through those dozens of emails.

Interestingly, like me, she never asked for or I guess expected a refund, just a different product that wasn't for sale, given to her at my complete expense. Also of note, apparently I was the only supplier of this product last year, not even the manufacturer had any stock for industrial use. Thanks Covid, I think?

She opened cases with eBay and PayPal. eBay had my back because she admitted that she bought the wrong product on purpose and ruined it. The PayPal notification looked like it was from the eBay case and I ignored it, thinking it was taken care of, until they opened a case because I never responded. I provided the emails that she sent, eBay's decision, and various other documentation and PayPal decides in her favor. What!?

Remember to keep your wits about you.

So here's their deal: in order to keep business, they do it all the time, basically stating that the customer must send back the product (with signature proof) at their expense and PP will refund them. On my side, they say that as a courtesy, they will cover the refund this one time. Basically they're betting that the buyer isn't going to pay to ship it back with tracking and signature. They absolutely know the buyer is scamming, but they still want that person's business. (Amazon has a similar thing they do, I can't tell you how many boxes of crap I got from Amazon Warehouse over Christmas, they do not inspect those returns at all.)

You may have run into this as a scam on Facebook Ads or Aliexpress - buy a product (gold bracelet) supposedly shipped from the US, you receive a crap product (bag of marbles) shipped from outside the US. In order to get your refund, you have to pay for international shipping back to the origin for hundreds of dollars, so you cut your losses. PayPal, FB, and Ali all know they're scams by the buyer or seller, and they do nothing about it at all.

So I never got the package and she never got a refund. Oddly around Christmas I did get a notification of a package that made it to my sorting center, from my sorting center, that was apparently COD. I never saw it, and my post office has no clue what it was or where it came from. (I thought that was sneaky though if it was from her.)

So sellers, yes, I've been there too, it sucks. You are also taking on part of the risk and should be prepared to bear some responsibility for offering up an item that you know isn't going to meet expectations. Cancel a sale if you have to, it's better than the alternative. At least you don't have someone trying to force you to supply something no one else on the planet has; but don't act like whatever it is your selling is the only one on the planet, odds are you're not that special.

Here's an idea, offer a "first sale" special for 3 (nice-ish) eggs for the cost of shipping and labor or a low, reasonable, price. You're vetting the buyer, and they're vetting you. The buyer gets to see your customer service and understand expectations, and you get to know the buyer with little to no pressure. It boosts your feedback score and gets you out of this nasty loop of recurring headaches.

Buyers, same thing. Do your best homework and vet the seller as best you can. Don't have unreasonable expectations of a perfect product. Don't buy from sellers that say "tough crap" up front. They wouldn't still be selling if people weren't buying. Don't buy from sellers that force you into taking one Ameraucana egg and 11 turken eggs in a "barnyard mix" if that's not a breed you want. They will stop throwing the crap in and lying about the actual mix of the other eggs if people stop buying. (No offense turkens, but you ugly, but the same with bantams thrown into full sized mixes. It isn't fair to the animals y'all, and it's bad enough that murphy's law says most will be roosters anyway.) If the seller is legit, they'd be willing to work out a request for the eggs you do want, likely at a higher price, but custom all the same.

My next hatching adventure will be the local Appenzeller Spitzhaubens and some eBay Lavender Ameraucanas. Laughing Chickens will get to crow another day.

 

[Tankueray]

Update: As I feared/suspected, no Ketawas hatched, only 2 attempted to develop. The seller took down all his auctions, and there are a number of sold listings that never received feedback, so I guess I'm not the only one.

But I did have 4 Lavender Ameraucanas hatch successfully; two others tried, but did not make it past pip. Out of the 10 eggs I got from the seller, 1 was infertile, 1 was a blood ring on day 3, 2 quit between days 14-18, and 6 made it to pip. The seller was Edgewood Acres Poultry, and I was very impressed with the eggs and shipping (which was more than twice as far as the Ketawa eggs.)

My 8 spitzhauben eggs were picked up locally, and I think the hens were young, because some of the eggs weren't "normal" (i.e., size/weight/shape). In the end, I had 4 pip and 2 successfully hatch. 1 was infertile, three late blood rings, 1 pipped internal but not external, one pipped and died while I was out (only for an hour!), and of course, two made it. The lady gave me two chicks because she didn't have all 10 eggs I paid for, so I'm good with that one.

Next up: 3 possible colors of Spitzhauben from Greenfire(!), BBS and White Ameraucanas.
I went from 1 incubator to 4 in three weeks (estate sale), and now I've got a lead on a GQF cabinet locally. I need to find an AA meeting (that's Ameraucana Alliance, right?)

 

[swampfox440]

USPS has turned to garbage . I had eggs that were shipped over night USPS it took 11 days to get them . They sat in Wisconsin for 5 days . I rested them then placed them in the incubator 10 days later 0 development a total loss . That much I can tell you .

 

[Tankueray]

USPS has turned to garbage . I had eggs that were shipped over night USPS it took 11 days to get them . They sat in Wisconsin for 5 days . I rested them then placed them in the incubator 10 days later 0 development a total loss . That much I can tell you .

I think it depends on where you are. I haven't had any problems at all with USPS, I sell and ship things all the time. The Texas processing centers are great, I can count on one hand the number of damaged packages I've had in the last 30 years (UPS and FedEx are a different story though). The only places I've ever had shipments to buyers lost or mishandled are Canada and stuff that went through the Chicago processing center. (Never a problem with Canada and USPS or UPS, but always with FedEx.)

The seller packed the eggs poorly and shipped them over a holiday weekend instead of waiting, I don't blame USPS for any of his shortcomings. In fact, I would've never had an issue if he'd held them until Monday like I asked, or even bothered to acknowledge that request (or the cracked egg photos) at all. And he doesn't do enough volume to forget that I was already upset when he didn't ask, but told me, to give him good feedback while completely ignoring everything I ever communicated.

I've contacted half a dozen sellers recently prior to bidding on their auctions; most are pretty bad at actually answering the question asked, but clearly avoiding a purebred or lineage question, and my favorite, "READ THE DESCRIPTION, IF YOU DONT LIKE IT DONT BID" answers are a pretty good giant red flag that I probably don't want their eggs, even if they have good feedback. (That guy's descriptions are in all caps and full of comments like that too. I'm guessing the only sales he makes are from people who didn't read the description, just frustrating him even more. I just lol'ed when I read his response.)

 

[ladybrasa]

It’s unfortunate they didn’t listen to your request, but don’t think it makes them a scammer, just not great business. I have seen a lot of eBay egg sellers specifically state they only ship out eggs in the early part of the week. I feel like these are the ones that have done it long enough to have learned and also have their egg sales planned through the week.

For the eggs you get (you might already know this, sorry), check out the air cells right away. If they are detached or partially detached, that’s probably from shipping. If the air cells are large, that could mean a porous egg or an older egg. Some hens just lay a too porous egg, but that could also indicate hen nutrition, too, which is a seller thing. If the air cells are small or at least reasonable sized (I can’t give you a specific measurement) then they are probably reasonably fresh and as good as you could get for shipped eggs for hatching.

I hope your eggs arrive in good shape!

 

[Tankueray]

Who sold you the ketawa eggs?

The user name was oklahomagamefarm.

 

[ladybrasa]

6 egg auctions seem pretty common on eBay. To my knowledge, USPS does still ship mail on Sunday’s, just the post offices are not open to the public. Don’t know how a holiday weekend works into that however. I’ve received eggs that old and they still started to develop. Last year I did let them sit 12-24 hours, but the 2 batches I got this year so far I put in after only several hours. Most did at least start developing. A scam is always possible, but I’m thinking they’re legit but didn’t listen to your request for a Monday shipment. They are probably interested in churning out rare breed egg sales for profit rather than breeding, but that’s the feeling I get from many eBay sellers.

 

[Tankueray]

Minor math error: That's not 2 days.

12 hours is all day or all night, 24 hours is one day and one night.

I have read that shipped eggs hatch better if you let them settle like that before incubating, so the seller is probably right about that.

I don't know about the rest of it.

Lol, hangry mistake, you are correct.

They do need to settle after shipping, that is true, but the point I was trying to make was that the absolute freshest they could be is gathered this morning, before they went to the post office at 9am. So laid last night/this morning is day 1; next Tuesday is day 5. Letting them rest puts me around day 6. If they're stored at 65ish degrees until incubation, I believe 7 days is the absolute longest they should be considered viable. And I could've even been cool with that if the seller would have stored them and waited until Monday to ship. We're not expecting hot weather, it's kind of cold today even, but when I went out to one of my sheds earlier, it was probably 80 degrees in there. If that box ends up in a parked truck at any time in the next few days, or gets handled extra rough on Monday because of trying to catch up from the holiday, it'll be the most expensive egg salad I'll ever make.