Welbars - Breed thread and discussion

[dheltzel]

What do your Welbars look like? I have some pics of Welbars on my website: http://welbars.com/doku.php?id=welbars:start
A US hatchery (Privett) has been selling "welbars" and they supply chicks to TSC. I have no idea where they got them, or if they are doing a "trendy name" thing by creating black sexlinks from Barred Rock hens and a Welsummer cockerel. True Welbars should look a lot like the pics on my website, which also has a bunch of links to other sites with Welbar information.
Welbars should lay dark eggs, like a good Welsummer or Marans. Hatcheries tend to breed anything that lays well and slap a name on it for marketing purposes. I have approached several hatcheries and offered to give them stock, but they don't think they can make money selling such an unknown breed.
Also, for anyone on FB, there is a Welbar group there that is much more active than this thread. I am the admin of that group, as well as the originator of most of the true Welbars that exist in the US now. Feel free to message me here or there if you are interested in getting a good start with these birds. I have stopped shipping for this year, but intend to have stock available next spring. The breed needs more champions to develop their own lines and improve them over time.

 

[dheltzel]

Thats great info, thanks. Having slept on it for the night, I kept thinking about the silver welbar, and came up with a hundred questions about how you get there... (working from building the breed from scratch)

I know that the Barred Rock carries a silver gene, which would most likely (if not definitely) be passed on to the F1 Cockerel along with the baring gene.

At F2, i expect it gets a bit more complex, where you now need to identify (and have enough growers) a Cock and Pullet that are both barred and carrying a dominant silver gene... I assume then that the F3 Welbars will be silver topped like the one in your photo?

or am I overcomplicating? could you just use silver duckwing Welsummers during the first and second breeding to lock in the silver trait?

Yes, silver duckwing welsummers can get you silver welbars. The main issue is that silver/gold is sexlinked, as is the barring.
Put a silver cock over gold welbar pullets. Save an F1 cockerel, is will be heterozyygous for silver and single barred.
Put that cockerel over gold welbar pullets and look for a double barred silver chick (male because it is double barred). Half the chicks will be silver and half the males will be double barred, so you will need to hatch a fair number of chicks to get this cockerel, as statistically only 1/8 will have this combination.
Once you have that elusive double barred silver cockerel (his is still carrying gold, only het for silver), put him over gold welbar pullets. All the resulting chicks are full welbars and fully autosexing. Half will be silver, the rest gold. The silver pullets are true breeding silver welbars, but the silver males are het for gold, like their father. I breed all the time this way, producing both silver and gold chicks for sale and to keep as breeders. Getting a true-breeding silver cockerel takes more work, and for me, is not worth the effort, but I can explain how to go about that if that is your goal.

 

[dheltzel]

Ideal Poultry will have this breed next year! I may have to order one if we get more chicks…trying to convince hub we can hook up the small coop to the run & get a few more birds…lol!

Privett has listed them for a few years now. Not sure where the stock originated for Ideal or Privett, but Hoover bought stock from me this past summer. IDK if they will offer them in 2024 or if they need to grow out a larger flock first.
It is pretty straightforward to develop an autosexing bird that looks like a Welbar, but getting the egg color dark is a lot trickier. Even normal Welsummers have this issue, different lines of Welsummers can produce very different egg colors. I have been trying for years to establish small breeders of Welbars who will pay attention to egg color and the Welsummer SOP to make quality birds available in more localities.
If anyone wants to be a breeder of Welbars (or Legbars) contact me in the spring and I can get you some quality stock to breed. http://welbars.com/index.php/welbars/gold-welbar/

 

[Rock Home Isle]

The Welbar is unfamiliar to me, but your images look fantastic.

One question...the egg in the center of the bottom row does not look as appealing as the others. Is it an image issue, or a dirty egg?

 

[Rock Home Isle]

Just spent the last few hours reading and re-reading that website. Yeah, you weren't kidding, awesome information, really inspiring.

 

[Rock Home Isle]

When did you start your Welbar project?

 

[Rock Home Isle]

That is so fricken cool

So after a few years now...how is their (Welbars) rate of lay compared to the Welsummer?

And how is the Welbars temperament compared to both the Barred Rock and the Welsummer?

I hope I'm not being a bother...but this is pretty interesting to me.

I have never ever heard of a breed/strain of poultry that can be created in a few short generations. That totally enthralls my imagination. Couple that with the fact that the Welbars have such eye appeal...yeah, very cool.

Edited: What are the parent stock and genetics to create the Silver Welbar?

Wow...what a fun research project this has become....

 

[Rock Home Isle]

Yes the coloring of the Welsummer appeals to me as well. I have a small flock of 6 Welsummer pullets. They are much more active than my Barred Rocks.

You have really struck a nerve with me on this subject...all the breeds involved are breeds that appeal to me. I really like the Welsummer, and I enjoy my Barred Rocks...one of my favorites.

 

[Rock Home Isle]

I believe my flock of Welsummers are perhaps inbred and not representative if the breed as a whole, but I often get more eggs from my pen of 7 Welbars than my pen of 18 Welsummers. My Welsummers are pretty "chill" overall (because I give them treats, they see my appearance as a potential positive experience), the Welbars are at least as calm, if anything a little better. I don't keep any rocks, but I think their demeanor can vary a lot between strains. They are heavier birds than Welsummers and I expect a mean rock could hurt you more than a mean Welsummer (never had a mean one, but have heard stories from others). Not surprisingly, Welbars are between rocks and Welsummers in their weight (and probably their rate of lay). My long term goal with the Welbars is to get them more like a Welsummer in size by crossing them to any strains of high quality Welsummers I can obtain ("high quality" meaning highly productive layers of dark eggs).

I love the classic "pheasant look" of a Welsummer hen, and a well groomed Welsummer cock is the prettiest chicken ever, but that is the only thing that I see as an advantage of Welsummers over Welbars. In every other way, I like my Welbars better than the Welsummers. I think Welbars are quite pretty of course, especially the pullets. I describe them as patterned like a Welsummer, but messier because the white barring breaks up the crisp pattern of a Welsummer.

It would be fairly strait forward to select for dual purpose with all these breeds, early feathering, weight at 5-8 weeks, date of first lay, apply Hogan system in late October early November for those birds that are your best...more productive layers.

Another point that is appealing...the Welbars can be used to transfer traits for breed improvement into the Welsummers. A great strain of Barred Rocks could be used to improve the Welbars and eventually improve the Welsummers...what a cool project.


Right now I'm trying to find the genetic pathways needed to create the Silver Welbar.

 

[Rock Home Isle]

HISTORIC PDF of sexlinked genes in poultry

http://www.esp.org/foundations/genetics/classical/holdings/Genetics/Genetics-1933-18-3-210.pdf