Ok to sell birds with Dq's

Quote:
even so, and presuming that as a well known judge he takes his valuable time to patrol craigslist and email people his opinion unsolicited, his opinon on your birds has relevance only in the show ring, and he can't issue you a DQ unless you go there to compete in front of him.

it would not be *entirely* unheard of for someone to send an email claiming to be someone they are not. which is why I say "unknown". in some arenas, these things do happen, one person messing with another's reputation.

but even if the email is from who it appears to be from, it doesn't change the rest. if RIR is heritage, and the birds are RIRs, they're heritage. if the advertising is truthful, there is no fault in selling them.

Quote:
ri whites

Rhode Island Whites are not a variety of Rhode Island Reds. They're a completely different breed.
IMO if you're advertising something as a"Heritage Breed" it sholud be a good example of that breed not a cull. I sell quality birds for $20, my culls go to an auction where they bring a couple of bucks each. To my mind selling culls for $15 each & representing them as "Heritage" is pretty low. Of course you do have to find someone stupid enough to buy them.

I have a couple of rare breeds. I sell my culls for $10-$20 dollars depending on gender. I am up front about them being pet quality. So far, the people I've sold to have been thrilled to have my birds. They're healthy, personable, and unusual.

How would you suggest the OP distinguish her birds from production reds rather than calling them "heritage"?

Quote:
even so, and presuming that as a well known judge he takes his valuable time to patrol craigslist and email people his opinion unsolicited, his opinon on your birds has relevance only in the show ring, and he can't issue you a DQ unless you go there to compete in front of him.

it would not be *entirely* unheard of for someone to send an email claiming to be someone they are not. which is why I say "unknown". in some arenas, these things do happen, one person messing with another's reputation.

but even if the email is from who it appears to be from, it doesn't change the rest. if RIR is heritage, and the birds are RIRs, they're heritage. if the advertising is truthful, there is no fault in selling them.

One aspect of the definition of "Heritage" as proposed by the ALBC is conforming to the established Standard. A bird with disqualifications fails that test doesn't it?

Quote:
if you're breeding for maintenance and improvement of the breed, any breed organization will expect the animal to adhere to the standard.

back to my mule-footed hogs... if I've got one with a flaw that would make him un-registerable, or at least undesirable for breed quality maintenance, does that make him *not* a mule footed hog? he doesn't suddenly become a non-breed specific animal, a mut, or a generic pig of unknown breed. he's simply a poorly made member of a heritage breed.

the *breed* is a recognized heritage breed. the *individual* may or may not be a shining example of that breed, but it's breeding is still it's breeding.

not every member of a breed is a shining example, suited for show or propigation. most, in fact, aren't. I've got an old thoroughbred gelding, he's got post legs, an overbite, too short a back, a thin neck and ears far too close together. but he's full thoroughbred *by breeding*. the fact that he's ugly and wouldn't meet anyone's standards for ideal example of thoroughbred doesn't negate the fact that he's a racing breed.

heritage breed is heritage breed. "heritage" refers to the breed, not the individual.

Is there any wonder we have so many disagreeements? We can't agree to a standard definition to "Heritage". It means different things to different people. We'll never agree on anything if we can't even agree to the basic definition. I do not equate "Show Quality" and "Heritage". To me they have different meanings, but that does not mean they have different meanings to everyone.

To me, someone breeding for pure SQ is breeding to win a grand prize at a chicken show. They are more worried about how many points on a comb or leg color than egg and/or meat production. It does not matter if an Ameraucana lays blue, green, white, or brown eggs. Egg color is not judged. Conformation, color, pattern, and many other things are. Just because someome is breeding SQ birds does not mean they are breeding Heritage birds.

To me, Heritage breeds were developed for production. The ability to achieve a weight of 4 pounds at 10 weeks was more important for a Delaware than its shade of white. The combination of egg and meat production were more important for a Barred Rock than how crisp the barring was. From these different breeds certain appearnce traits were selected to represent the breed and enable them to be judged. Just look at the different colors and patterns recognized for Rocks an Wyandottes for example. Those different colors and pattersn were developed more for show than production, but they became recognized as breed characteristics too, so they are important. And some of the characteristics selected to represent the breed were chosen because they make the bird better for production, such as conformation.

I'd expect a Heritage breed to conform real close to the SOP, but I would not expect it to be close enough to win a prize or even avoid disqualification. As someone else said or alluded to, many birds bred to be SQ wind up with disqualifications or for other reasons are culled. But I'd expect the production qualities that are not judged to be given as much importance, if not more, that the SOP characteristics that are judged. I think in some ways breeding true Heritage breeds is harder than just breeding SQ. I see it as SQ plus, but fully recognize they are not really SQ, if that makes any sense.

I think the "Pet" breeds are somewhat similar. Some of them may have been developed for certain functions, but they were mainly bred for their strange or glorious appearance. Certain characteristics were selected to represent the breed so people could show and compete against each other, but the original function was more as pets. When I hear "Heritage", I really don't think of Silkies.

To the OP, I don't know why that judge did what he did. There may have been something in your wording or whatever that he saw as wrong and really offended him. Sometimes when people develop a passion for something, they get passionate about it. He may see himself as a knight-protector of the purity of the breed. I really don't know.

As for what I might suggest you call your birds, maybe Production Quality if they meet that definition and actually lay well, unless you really do try real hard to meet the SOP show characteristics as well as the production characteristics for RIR's. But I basically agree, if you do not advertise them to be SQ, and are clear to buyers when they diiscuss it with you that they are not true SQ, you are not doing anything real bad wrong.

Birds don't have to be shown to have a disqualifying fault. They would have to be shown to actually have been disqualified, but they can certainly have a disqualification even if they haven't been shown.

If the standard says that white ear lobes are a disqualification and your bird has white earlobes, then it has a disqualification. Something like white ear lobes would show up in a photo, so a judge seeing that photo would certainly be able to tell that the bird has a disqualification.

If you want to sell culls, I think that is perfectly OK, as long as the buyer knows he isn't getting show quality birds. I do think it is deceitful to sell mixed breeds as pure, but if you are sure that the birds are purebreds, it is OK to sell them as purebreds that are not show quality.

A lot of buyers don't plan to show, so they won't much care if the bird has a disqualifying fault.

"Heritage" doesn't really have a definition. It means different things to different people.

The SOP doesn't have a definition of heritage. One of the organizations defines it as a breed established before *date* (don't remember which date). To me it means a landrace breed.

So to me, my Blue Swedish, Pekin, and Pomeranian geese are heritage and my Silver Appleyards are not, even though the Appleyard breed is getting close to a century old.

ALBC says "heritage" means recognized by the APA before mid 20th century. Bit of an odd definition, if you ask me.

I went to the SOP. Disquaifications for RIR are:

One or more entirely white feathers showing in outer plumage. Also "general disqualifications" and "cutting for defects".

General disqualifications are (disqualification is mandatory, "the judge shall disqualify" ):

1. Specimens lacking in breed characteristics
2. Definite indications of contagious or communicable disease
3. Evidence of faking.

Also:

Bird out of standard weight
Wrong comb type
Comb restricting sight
Absence of spike or more than one spike
Several things about the different comb types (look it up yourself if you need to know, I'm not copying all of it)
Deformed beak or bill
blindness, irregular pupil
Things about crests, beards and muffs
Twisted wing feathers (except frizzles and sebastopols)
Split wing
slipped wing
Reversed wing feathers
split quill (except Silkies)
Clipped wings
Angel wing
Crooked roached or deformed back
Absence of tail feathers (except Araucanas)
Twisted tail feather (except sebastopols and frizzles)
Reversed main feathers
Twisted sickles (except frizzles)
Split tail
squirrel tail (except Japanese bantam)
Wry tail
Rumpless, except where a breed characteristic
Tumor affecting health or market value

Bow leg
deformed foot
duck foot in land fowl
Enlarged misshapen shank or hock
Knock knee
Web foot in land fowl
wrong number of toes
Absence of spurs in some breeds
evidence of removal of stub feathers
Shanks not feathered in feather legged breeds
Hen feathering in males
White face in some breeds
White ear lobes when red is specified

Black in bill of white ducks
Foreign color in shanks and toes
Lots of stuff about color not meeting standard.


A lot of those disqualifications could be seen in a photo, so it would be easy enough to tell if the bird had a disqualification from a photo.

rant: The term "heritage" is trash to me. There is no point as it has been used and abused to the point of ridiculousness and now carries no true meaning except to sell birds to others who do not know enough about the breed to tell good stock from poor.


/rant.

Quote:
X2! It's pretty much the same with the terms "organic" and "free range". Niche terms that catch the prospective buyer's eye, even if they have no clue what they actually mean. To me, a true "Free Range" chicken would be one that earns their keep by foraging for their own food, period. That they live solely on their own, much like free range cattle did years ago, that never saw a bale of hay or a sack of feed, they lived on the native grasses. I answered an ad for "free range" chickens recently. He assured me all his chickens were indeed "free range". When I asked him to extrapalate, he said, "my birds aren't raised in cages, they have a huge run, 30 x 30' that they free range in." Buyer beware, sellers be honest!

I will state my opinion here, if the birds are merely advertised as large fowl layers and not directly advertised as any one particular breed so as to limit individuals from attempting to use them in breeding pens I see no issue with the sale of large fowl color or type culls for layers. Afterall that is what the hatchery stock is that is sold everyday, type and color culls that do not belong in any legitamate breeding pen.