1 sq. foot per bird for chicken coop in a cold climate?

[baldessariclan]

After reading through everything, think I finally understand the situation. Gotta go w/ Sundari's perspective on this one -- best not to overlegislate, and let people think and research it out on their own. Suspect vast majority of people will do a LOT better than the 1 sq. ft. min., while tiny minority of cruelest and/or most clueless owners generally won't follow the law anyways, no matter how you word it.

 

[perchie.girl]

Quote:
I think those laws are probably written for the Commercial farms. The egg farms. They did that here in California http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/unleashed/2009/06/egg-farmers-.html They have till 2015 to comply. The new law says 216 square inches per bird. 144 inches is 1 sq. ft. min.

 

[EileneBob]

Interesting to see Sundari join the conversation, since it is on her word that the 1 sq. ft. legislation was drafted. Yep, I should have been more specific that there was also 10 sq ft. of permeable land specified in the ordinance.

I have received one reply from a gentleman in Florida who thinks that is the right combination since in a warm climate, that is all they use it for. But he was careful to point out that a) he lives in Florida where things are warm year round and b) he has bantams (had to look up why that was significant, I guess they are very small birds).

I did a lot of research in books, and most people who have been doing this for a few decades suggest 3-4 feet minimum coop space in colder climates with predator proof run space between 4 sq. ft. (1 book) and 10 sq ft. (6 books) and 16 foot (1 book). Interesting to note that every single book had roosting perches as a requirement, not as an option.

Other replies from other states with snow have all specified 4 ft coop space, as the chickens use the coop for more than sleeping during the cold winter months. While we in Colorado have more sun than many states - we do have winters and snow and a couple of months where it rarely gets above 40 F.

So for everyone besides Sundari, who is responsible for writing the current legislation, does that alter your answers? Do chickens, regardless of climate, only need 1 sq. ft. of coop space for sleeping? Or do chickens in 4 season states need more?

 

[baldessariclan]

Ah, the plot thickens!

All things considered, I still like the idea of keeping the legislation as simple as possible. The Seattle, Portland, Chicago, et al. ordinances (as described by Sundari, in any case) are a lot more appealing to me than the CA or Denver ones, at this point. Our local ordinances (Wichita, KS) make no mention of square footage requirements for enclosures. One result of this was that I had to do research on recommended/required space myself, and learned a lot more in the process. A win-win for all involved, as far as I'm concerned.

Just my own personal opinion, though -- not trying to "ruffle any feathers" here...

 

[perchie.girl]

Quote:
Definitely useful feedback -- based on what you were saying, in your previous setup the chickens only had a total of 7 s.f. per bird, and they were too crowded. The Denver ordinance suggests a minimum of 11 s.f. per bird total, with the understanding that more is always better (under the licensing provision, new chicken owners would be given extensive documentation on "best practices").

Denver's law also contains provisions about animal abuse, neglect, and cruelty. Regardless of the shelter/open space size, if chickens were not being treated well then a chicken owner would face penalties.

Most Denver chicken owners I know choose to give their birds far more space than what would be mandated as the minimum under the new ordinance.

I just read this thread one more time... Are you talking about Licensing to have chickens.... Like a dog license....? Will they be later on required to do vaccinations.... and health inspections.... !!! Is this for the Home owner not Commercial hatcheries... Who is going to be inforcing this.... Administrating this... And what about people who raise chickens for food... Who dispatch and dress them themselves....

 

[EileneBob]

I don't really have an oar in this game - just concerned because I have one of THOSE neighbors. She is just the type of person who would start this, then tire of it, and abandon the birds to languish in the back yard. (She's done this several times with other animals.) While I'm not vegetarian or vegan, I hate to see any animal mistreated.

Most laws are written for the irresponsible, not for the responsible people who care, unfortunately.

A number of the cities cited have no guidelines/restrictions at all, if I'm reading her blog correctly.

 

[patandchickens]

Quote:
<shrug>

What's "need". It is very very very subjective.

To stay alive, 1 sq ft indoors plus 10 sq ft outdoors may be fine -- providing the particular chickens in question are reasonably outdoorsy and/or the outdoor space is sufficiently protected for them to choose to use it during unpleasant weather. And hey, even if they're not using their outdoor space at all, it's still a tad better than most battery hens get. So, whatever, sure, if that's how you want to keep chickens.

Personally I've never kept them at less than 4 sq ft indoors *plus* ample run and at everything up to 15-20 sq ft indoors plus ample run (and lest you think it's because I'm in Canada, my experience with the more-crowded stocking rates was in *summertime* not winter)...

...and seeing how differently the hens act at 15 sq ft indoors (plus ample run), I would NEVER be keeping them at even just 4 sq ft apiece plus run, let alone 1 sq ft plus 10 sq ft in the run, unless I was for some reason keeping them for solely-nutritional reasons and had no possible means of giving them more space or keeping fewer chickens.

But everyone has different ideas of how it is reasonable or fair to keep animals, or what their goals are.

So, I think my answer remains: <shrug>

I can't control what other people do, I can just give my own chickens the best conditions I reasonably can (i.e. keep fewer chickens)

JMHO,

Pat

 

[EileneBob]

Sorry about the technology - I'm enough of a newbie I still don't understand how to imbed the previous post.

pat and chickens - thanks for such a thoughtful answer!!

Like I said at the beginning, I'm new to the backyard chicken thing. All my experience (and advisors) come from small family farms in Iowa, where chickens almost always had free run, but the sheltered coop space for 10 chickens was still the size of my one car garage.

Really appreciate your feedback, especially given the winter conditions in Ontario.

 

[perchie.girl]

Quote:
I think the point of view I have is there are existing regulations on the books for the ASPCA. That should be enough. Adding on another law without enforcement is ludicrous. Just like here in California. They just passed a law against driving and talking on your cell phone. Its a 50 dollar fine. Did that stop people from talking on their cells... NO not just no but HECK no. I dont know how much it cost to pass that law... but if you take a look at existing laws there is one in there already covering driving while distracted.

 

[patandchickens]

perchie.girl :

Are you talking about Licensing to have chickens.... Like a dog license....? Will they be later on required to do vaccinations.... and health inspections.... !!! Is this for the Home owner not Commercial hatcheries... Who is going to be inforcing this.... Administrating this... And what about people who raise chickens for food... Who dispatch and dress them themselves....

Eh?

A bunch of cities *already* require you to get a permit to keep chickens.

And FWIW most cities that allow keeping of chickens within city limits, do not allow you to slaughter them. Well anyhow they technically forbid it, therefore they provide recourse for nosy neighbors who wish to complain if you do

Pat​