2 yr old rooster has gone psycho

[jajeanpierre]

people hate when I compare my animals to their children.....

The trick is to compare training strategies. Takes the sting out of for many parents. Now, husbands--that's a whole different problem. They will never accept the concept that they are being trained.

 

[centrarchid]

Centrachid, What exacly do you mean by the statement above in bold?

I have two problematic young roosters, both  about 15/16 months old.  Meeting aggression with aggression isn't working out very well with the LF Ameraucana who will likely simply be culled.  The other problematic rooster has just started being aggressive to me in the past few days but has shown aggression to my adult son for a few weeks before.  I would like to see if simply changing my husbandry techniques could solve the problem.  I would very much appreciate your input.

Background:
The bird is a double copy frizzle Cochin hatched March of last year.  He is a hatchery bird.  His being a double copy frizzle (carrying two copies of the frizzle gene) complicates his temperament.  I have read in various articles that  double copy frizzles are more flighty than a normal frizzle and the two double copies I have ARE spookier birds.  The birds' feathers are severely compromised, breaking and falling out with very little handling of the bird.  They both act as if handling them causes them pain.  He is free ranging in my back yard with a same-aged Silkie rooster, six Silkie hens and a LF Polish hen.  A week ago an Ameraucana from my LF flock in the front of my property hatched a clutch of chicks.  I moved them into a pen and  a dog-house coop in my back yard.  Thursday, a Silkie hatched a chick in the back yard flock's nest box.  Yesterday I moved that hen and chick to a little dog-house coop beside the other hen and chicks.  She'll get out in a pen today.

Description of Attack:
In the past few weeks, this rooster has been making infrequent rushes/attacks on me.  I responded as another rooster would (I'm new to chickens, so really don't know a whole lot of how another rooster really would respond), grabbing him by the hackles and holding him down for at most a minute.  A few days ago, he started attacking me like a sparring rooster, which really was kind of funny-- tiny 2-pound rooster sparring with me.  He stood there, head lowered, hackles flared six inches in front of my toes.

Meeting violence with violence has not worked at all with the LF Ameraucana, so obviously I need to change my tactics.  Obviously I am doing something very wrong, probably both in my interactions with them before they show any inclination to attack and my response to their aggression.  Obviously I need to change my behavior.

Your description #2 seems to very neatly fit this bird's attacks.  So, are you saying that I simply allow him to attack and take it until he quits and then step forward towards him until he either keeps attacking or runs away? 

The LF Ameraucana's attacks are a bit more complicated.  I'm not sure I could physically stand getting flogged by him.  He once hit me in the shins with his wings and it felt as if I had been kicked hard in the shins.  I was surprised at how strong the hit was.  The Cochin is only  two pounds and has stunted wings (as a result of the double copy frizzle gene).  His attacks will not be hard to take.  Plus there is no risk of him leaping in my face which there is with the LF Ameraucana.

I would really appreciate your thoughts on this.

With respect to the larger bird.

Stand and take it until he quits. When he does quit, move into him but do not look at him or push him. Allow him to control interaction. When he breaks off he ideally will not run away, rather he will appear to simply find something better to do. Do not feed him in an effort to find him something else to do otherwise you get into the realm of situation 1) (I tried that a couple times).

I was short on details when it comes to being on the receiving end of a flogging and you will be pushing your comfort zone allowing such a critter try to cause you harm. First wear proper clothing. Three places I do not like sustained hits on are face, shins and wrists. Let him commit to your legs for a moment or two until he tires so he cannot get up into air as needed to target your face. Then get down with him and allow him to go after your torso and upper arms. You can keep him away from your face usually by just looking away but putting you arm up also helps. Odds are he will get confused when you look away but do not flee as that does not match rules for a proper chicken fight. They do appear to have some rules believe that or not.


The part in bold actually works if you do it correctly. I can not take credit for such because that is part of the "Chicken Mommy Lore" around here that actually holds water if done correctly. We had been doing here all along but I did not know until very recently and it was employed by adult free-ranging gamecocks overlording groups of stags and my dogs. When stags get into a fight the overlord runs over and acts aggressive causing the stags to stand down or face getting whooped. This is threat of violence which is off table for you. Dogs would do it even to rival harem masters where the fighting birds where pushed down and held for a few seconds by dogs. It takes exceptional dogs for this option to be employed and requires much more effort than breaking a single man-fighter to get you ready for such. As far as harem masters where concerned they were being attacked by a predator and after several such events over as many days the harem masters began to figure that assaulting the their rival would bring in the predator (heavy pawed dogs). This worked great on non-game birds like American Dominiques and my Missouri Dominiques but would not stop two gamecocks (tried that so a limited extent but other methods proved more fruitful). The more direct "Chicken Mommy Restraining Method" was employed on a single Gamecock dead set on fighting with others penned in cockyard. Every time he ran over to fight I policed him up, carried him back to his territory, then placed him in a pen for four hours. I do not know if it was the packing, penning for fours our or the combination of the two. It took three years for that but effort was not concerted. Doing similar to the other breeds I think would give much quicker results, possibly on the order of days. Increasing duration of carrying might also speed things up a great deal. We also do similar with birds that used to fight you briefly as you take them out of the pen. What is done is you reach in and take your licks as bird is gently grabbed by body and pulled out. He will bite and even flog when removed for a moment or two. Then put him back in and repeat. Apparently he gets the impression of futility of attacks and resigns himself to the handling.


I have an American Dominique cockerel that might have inclinations for acting aggressively like your larger bird. I will see if I can push his buttons a little to get him into the number 2) situation then demonstrate the breaking process.

Overall, emphasis with future birds needs to be on the prevention.

 

[centrarchid]

people hate when I compare my animals to their children.....

In my setup management is the same. Children by age two are smarter than all but dogs and pass them up by age three.

 

[subhanalah]

The trick is to compare training strategies.  Takes the sting out of for many parents.  Now, husbands--that's a whole different problem.  They will never accept the concept that they are being trained.  

I have to admit, some people are just super sensitive to criticism so I try not to say the way they are doing it is wrong lol

 

[jajeanpierre]

I have to admit, some people are just super sensitive to criticism so I try not to say the way they are doing it is wrong lol

Training strategies are never wrong. Sometimes they are ineffective. Ineffectiveness isn't as emotionally laden as "wrong" is. My little ABA analysis showed me in no uncertain terms that meeting my rooster's violence with violence was ineffective. It wasn't "wrong," it just didn't work. It is easier for me to abandon an ineffective method that it is to abandon a "wrong" method. But, yes, many people do not appreciate comparing parenting strategies with animal training. And no one likes to be wrong.

 

[subhanalah]

Training strategies are never wrong.  Sometimes they are ineffective.  Ineffectiveness isn't as emotionally laden as "wrong" is.  My little ABA analysis showed me in no uncertain terms that meeting my rooster's violence with violence was ineffective.  It wasn't "wrong," it just didn't work.  It is easier for me to abandon an ineffective method that it is to abandon a "wrong" method. But, yes, many people do not appreciate comparing parenting strategies with animal training.  And no one likes to be wrong.

even when positive and constructive words are used...it's better just to avoid it all together..."sorry, I guess I got no advice for ya" type thing.

 

[centrarchid]

Well, I've read all I could find here on lethargic roos who are not eating, ..and all of them ended up dying. Now I am really worried. There is no chicken vet around here either, not even a regular vet on a Sunday, ..so I guess I will go to the feed store and see if they have anything to suggest. My poor boy. I simply have no idea what is going on here..

Need another thread with pictures. Report breast condition. Without more info assume worms. Get him in cool place with electrolyte laced water. Get dewormer into him. Treatment itself stressful.

 

[6of6chicks]

[This is a little off topic from psycho roosters, but it does apply to training any animal--psycho rooster, dog, child or husband.]

That's the real drawback in trying to use extinction as a training strategy--it is just too easy to slip up and reward the behavior. The less frequently a behavior is rewarded, the more solidly the behavior is trained into the animal. I know, it sounds counter intuitive but it really isn't. Using a variable reinforcement strategy, the animal doesn't know if or when the reward will come, but history has shown that eventually the reward will come. Since it believes it will come, it will continue to exhibit the behavior.

I think everyone is familiar with extinction and extinction bursts, but are just not familiar with the scientific terminology for it. Think of a child that whines for something. The parent says no. If the child keeps whining, s/he may wear the parent down and the parent gives in just to stop the behavior. The child learns that if it whines long enough or loudly enough, it could get what it wants. If the parent had never given in, the child might whine long and loudly for some time, but if it is never rewarded for whining, it will abandon that strategy in favor of something else.

The trouble with using extinction as a training tool is that it is really easy to train the unwanted behavior into the animal. It works really well in a laboratory setting, but not so well in your home. Who can tolerate window shattering macaw screaming for more than a minute?

Thanks for the explanation. I think I have heard that terminology before, but had long since forgotten it!

I guess I'm coming at this from the perspective of dogs, which is why I was curious if it would be useful with birds. Better to ask than waste my time trying. But I DO have a problem with the "real world" terminology. I've had many dogs, and none of them lived in laboratory settings. I'm not sure why training birds is "real," but training dogs isn't? Maybe I'm just reading that wrong?

I HAVE had success with this type of training with all my dogs to some degree or another. It does take extreme diligence and patience. I enjoy working with my dogs, so I tend to be obsessive about it. Maybe that's why it does work for me - for the first few years EVERY moment spent with my dogs is a training opportunity, whether it be commands, play, or socialization. Hyper vigilance may be necessary, but this type of training can be highly effective, especially when working with an intelligent dog. It DOES have it's downsides. I have endured many, many hours of puppies screaming at me from a crate or tethered position (to name one example). But if done correctly, most are smart enough to realize it doesn't get them anywhere, especially when the hugs & treats appear the moment they finally shut up.

I was just curious if it would work with birds, but from your descriptions of parrots I'm guessing not? Honestly I wouldn't even try simply because I don't "speak" bird well enough to be an effective trainer. I can read the subtlest facial expressions of a dog, but that comes from lots of experience. Birds? No way! I'm way too much of a newbie. My chickens went into a zombie state the other day and started purring. I didn't know if they were happy or having seizures! lol.

Thanks for the reply - it was interesting to hear the perspective of someone way more familiar with bird behavior/training than I am. Makes me think!

 

[6of6chicks]

I have to admit, some people are just super sensitive to criticism so I try not to say the way they are doing it is wrong lol

I laughed so hard at this whole exchange about kids and training. I used to be a teacher and I had fantastic classroom management. I had one principal that would send everyone to my room - from student teachers to veteran teachers - to see how I did things. When they asked what management strategies I used I always answered with "Puppies for Dummies." It was the truth - simply THE BEST classroom management book I have ever read. You wouldn't believe the shocked looks I would get! Everyone would get SO offended! But training is training, and it turns out a 10-year old kid likes getting a reward just as much as a 6 month old puppy does. What a shocker! lol.

 

[subhanalah]

I laughed so hard at this whole exchange about kids and training. I used to be a teacher and I had fantastic classroom management. I had one principal that would send everyone to my room - from student teachers to veteran teachers - to see how I did things. When they asked what management strategies I used I always answered with "Puppies for Dummies." It was the truth - simply THE BEST classroom management book I have ever read. You wouldn't believe the shocked looks I would get! Everyone would get SO offended! But training is training, and it turns out a 10-year old kid likes getting a reward just as much as a 6 month old puppy does. What a shocker! lol.

I believe it stems from the arrogance that "we" are "higher" than "animals" whenever all we are is animals who have managed to take over the world at the expense of everything else.