** 2017 New Drug Law - What Are Your Plans? **

[Curnow]

Back to the original guestion....

My practices and plans will not change for any of my livestock/pets. Good preventive maintenance. Meds or vet when and if necessary, even if it is no longer as convenient as it was before.
And above all EDUCATE myself on improving my practices.

This thread can serve at part of that education. I see we have information and opinions from producers big and small of varied species and experience levels. That is WONDERFUL!.

It saddens me when I see animal keepers that don't even know the difference between viral and bacterial infections....or that treating each can be very different. It is our duty to know.
It saddens me when I see animal keepers that don't have an educated, researched grasp about the difference in organic practices vs. medically necessary treatments.
It is our duty to know the difference in prebiotic, probiotics, antibiotics, holistic.....and so on...and so on....

Please understand I am not trying to anger anyone, or talk down about anyone's personal practices. I would love to see this discussion keep going RESPECTFULLY as a way we can all help educate ourselves, and in doing so improve our husbandry methods.

 

[casportpony]

@Curnow

Okay, so I am one of those that is quite confused about "organic" vs "medically necessary treatments", and that's because I've read posts that say stuff like "I'll lose my organic status if I have antibiotics or wormer on the property", which I find a little hard to believe. Anyway, would like to learn more about what it really means, and I'd like to learn more about the difference between "prebiotics" and "probiotics". It's on my list of things to read up on.

Bacterial vs viral... see that all the time, and also see people saying stuff like "amprolium is a antibiotic", and in one case I think someone called it a probiotic.

Thanks for your posts!

 

[Curnow]

Yes, I agree. I am always trying to learn more. Unfortunately there is so much misinformation everywhere, and some people will just not open their mind to hear another's opinions or personal experiences.

Hopefully we can keep this going as a learning tool for all of us!

Reminds me of my arguments with my sister about GMO's. I am of the opinion that is should not be the genetically modified plant that bothers her (and boy it does) but perhaps the chemicals that are able to go on certain plants after careful modification. (unless a person has certain food allergies of course) Look at history....we have been changing plant genetics for a looooonnnggg time. That does not mean that plant can't be organically grown and chemical free while still being genetically modified.

I don't know the rules or laws for "Certified Organic" farms, so I can't speak to that.

I do feel though that "I" (meaning my body) is organic....yet I have had surgeries to remove troubled organs, fix my back, and seek medical treatment when I am ill. Which means that at times I have been on medically necessary medications and pain control. I try to live a fairly clean lifestyle and am pretty healthy....but I will treat what ails me and eat GMO plant matter. I know...that's a weird way of thinking about it...but true to me. Pretty sure if you opened me up right now....there would be no terrible toxic matter, regardless of what my past necessary treatments were.

 

[Curnow]

@Curnow

Okay, so I am one of those that is quite confused about "organic" vs "medically necessary treatments", and that's because I've read posts that say stuff like "I'll lose my organic status if I have antibiotics or wormer on the property", which I find a little hard to believe. Anyway, would like to learn more about what it really means, and I'd like to learn more about the difference between "prebiotics" and "probiotics". It's on my list of things to read up on.

Bacterial vs viral... see that all the time, and also see people saying stuff like "amprolium is a antibiotic", and in one case I think someone called it a probiotic.

Thanks for your posts!

Probiotics are live enzymes that aide in digesting and a nice balanced amount should live in our (or animal) gut. Because they are living enzymes they need something to feed off of or they will not flourish and die.

Example from my PERSONAL experience.....

Milk Kefir is a good example and easy to understand. I became interested in it due to having my gallbladder removed and needing some digestive aide...

They start with Kefir "grains" that look like little gelatinous cottage cheese chunks. They have to have a suspension to grow and flourish or they will die. The fats and sugars in the milk added to them keeps them alive and viable That would be the PREBIOTIC (food for the probiotic), thus producing Milk Kefir for our consumption. We consume the Milk Kefir and populate our gut with PROBIOTICS (the live enzymes to aide digestion). In order for that good gut bacteria to flourish it needs to be fed with more Prebiotics. And the cycle goes on...

That may be a little off...but pretty close. If you read about Kefir (whether you use it or not) it is a pretty easy to follow way to understand the science behind it. That science can then be applied elsewhere!

 

[Curnow]

@Curnow

Okay, so I am one of those that is quite confused about "organic" vs "medically necessary treatments", and that's because I've read posts that say stuff like "I'll lose my organic status if I have antibiotics or wormer on the property", which I find a little hard to believe. Anyway, would like to learn more about what it really means, and I'd like to learn more about the difference between "prebiotics" and "probiotics". It's on my list of things to read up on.

Bacterial vs viral... see that all the time, and also see people saying stuff like "amprolium is a antibiotic", and in one case I think someone called it a probiotic.

Thanks for your posts!

Maybe my way of looking at my personal practices with my animals is simplistic....but it goes like this...and this applies to how I keep my pets and livestock.

What would you do for your kids, or spouse, or parents.....your human family.....
Your can breast feed your baby, and as they age, feed them only all organic meats, fruits, and vegetables that you produced yourself...
You can ensure they are getting a good amount of exercise and playing outdoors in the wonderful sun.....
But at some point they will be exposed to some type of injury or illness while living a good clean wholesome life....
Lets say it's strep throat for example....
You could choose to treat it at home holistically with Apple Cider Vinegar and Herbs (forgive me, I don't actually know how it would be treated holistically, this is just an example) and not seek treatment from a qualified medical professional....
It may work...
But It also may advance from Strep Throat to Scarlet Fever....
Just think about it, how would you have treated that child....???

I personally would have taken them to the doctor for the strep throat...gotten whatever antibiotics or medications were necessary to heal them and alleviate their temporary suffering. I would try my best to keep it from spreading to others while doing so.

Treating an illness or injury when "MEDICALLY NECESSARY".

 

[tlzimmerman]

To be certified as organic, all cattle should meet the following criteria: Born and raised on certified organic pasture. Never receive antibiotics. Never receive growth-promoting hormones. Are fed only certified organic grains (corn is a grain) and grasses.

Normally, certified organic cattle are grass fed because it is almost impossible to find organic grains, and they are very expensive. Really though, if you ask me and this is just my opinion from within the industry, certified organic produce and meat is such a scam. Organic doesn't mean no pesticides or herbicides, it just means the pesticides and herbicides used have to be derived from nature. For instance, permethrins, copper sulfate, rotenone, and neem oil are all certified for organic use. Permethrins and copper sulfate are bad for people, rotenone kills fish extremely easily, and neem oil is incredibly toxic to bees at levels that is much lower than is approved for use. Organic means found in nature, found in nature doesn't mean it won't kill you, lots of things in nature will kill you.

Contrast that to modern herbicides and pesticides, which were lab designed specifically to target things and be as safe as possible to humans and the environment. Take for example, roundup (glyphosate) which has a HUGE black eye and people seem to think is so evil. Trust me, I have been around most every approved chemical there is, glyphosate is by far the least toxic. Common vinegar is something like 4 times as toxic to humans as glyphosate. It is one of the most studied chemicals in history, and not a single double blind peer reviewed study has ever labeled it as anything but safe. There are a few approved chemicals people could be a little iffy about if they wanted to.....glyphosate isn't one of them IMO.

Most all of the propaganda on the internet out there about modern agriculture is funded by the certified organic movement when you trace it back, because they are the ones who profit from it.

For what its worth, back to the original question, it used to be pretty standard practice when new cattle came to your facility they would get a dose of feed grade antibiotic. This was to protect the entire herd because animals from other parts of the country could be carrying bacterial illnesses that your herd hadn't built immunity to. Left unchecked, this could become a major problem in the whole herd. I have never seen or heard of a facility that kept animals on antibiotics all the time.

 

[Curnow]

To be certified as organic, all cattle should meet the following criteria: Born and raised on certified organic pasture. Never receive antibiotics. Never receive growth-promoting hormones. Are fed only certified organic grains (corn is a grain) and grasses.

Normally, certified organic cattle are grass fed because it is almost impossible to find organic grains, and they are very expensive. Really though, if you ask me and this is just my opinion from within the industry, certified organic produce and meat is such a scam. Organic doesn't mean no pesticides or herbicides, it just means the pesticides and herbicides used have to be derived from nature. For instance, permethrins, copper sulfate, rotenone, and neem oil are all certified for organic use. Permethrins and copper sulfate are bad for people, rotenone kills fish extremely easily, and neem oil is incredibly toxic to bees at levels that is much lower than is approved for use. Organic means found in nature, found in nature doesn't mean it won't kill you, lots of things in nature will kill you.

Contrast that to modern herbicides and pesticides, which were lab designed specifically to target things and be as safe as possible to humans and the environment. Take for example, roundup (glyphosate) which has a HUGE black eye and people seem to think is so evil. Trust me, I have been around most every approved chemical there is, glyphosate is by far the least toxic. Common vinegar is something like 4 times as toxic to humans as glyphosate. It is one of the most studied chemicals in history, and not a single double blind peer reviewed study has ever labeled it as anything but safe. There are a few approved chemicals people could be a little iffy about if they wanted to.....glyphosate isn't one of them IMO.

Most all of the propaganda on the internet out there about modern agriculture is funded by the certified organic movement when you trace it back, because they are the ones who profit from it.

For what its worth, back to the original question, it used to be pretty standard practice when new cattle came to your facility they would get a dose of feed grade antibiotic. This was to protect the entire herd because animals from other parts of the country could be carrying bacterial illnesses that your herd hadn't built immunity to. Left unchecked, this could become a major problem in the whole herd. I have never seen or heard of a facility that kept animals on antibiotics all the time.

x 2 on the Glyphosate explanation. Thanks for adding! I too was a victim of propaganda at one time, calling Monsanto "Monsatan" despite the fact that my husband has been a Custom Applicator for years and now also in Ag Service Store management as well....I was informed, so I have no excuse. I had to do my OWN research to find out how wrong I was about ALOT of things due to being spoon fed propaganda.

Can't be mad at chemical companies for trying to produce newer, better ways to grow bigger, faster, stronger....our instant gratification, more, more society created that machine! But most people don't look at it that way. Once again...fact check, research, learn....and by all means add some common sense!

I did see a chart somewhere once comparing regular household "safe" products and "home made" herbicide to glyphosate....it was scary, and I sure don't mean the glyphosate!

 

[casportpony]

What about " organic" dairy cattle, does their alfalfa have to be certified organic?

 

[Curnow]

I have none of that stuff anyway. I have a vitamin for chicks with stress or leg/foot issues but they have to really need it to get it. I have the same antibiotic ointment for them I have for me. I have Castor Oil (a nod to the wisdom of @Beekissed who told me about it for increasing circulation, which it indeed does) and I have raw honey. The little bottle of Poly-Vi-Sorb that I have on hand I got when I got my first chicks and I've used it exactly twice in all that time...once for one of my first chicks who seemed to be limping for no reason, and once for Scout after his frost bite. While my setup is kept up, I certainly wouldn't eat off the floor in there.

I start all chicks with a clump of soil straight out of the garden, roots, dirt, grass, weeds and all. They are raised outside on the same ground that the adults are on, and that they will be exposed to for the rest of their lives. Other than that, I do nothing else, and so far everything is great. Could that change? Of course it could, I'm not that naive. But when I read post after post of "my chicken chipped a toenail" and read someone else responding "give it this antibiotic for x number of days" I know that there is a serious issue with over-reliance.

My 2 cents.

Love this reply....balance and wisdom!

 

[Curnow]

What about " organic" dairy cattle, does their alfalfa have to be certified organic?

I don't kown, but I would say if that applies for beef cattle, it probably applies to dairy cattle.