** 2017 New Drug Law - What Are Your Plans? **

[shortgrass]

It wasn't confusing(not sure where you got that).......
.....he understood them perfectly, it's why he made the decision not to play their game.

truck farmer

Ah! Ok, gotcha, truck farmer! Lol I'm sorry, I was envisioning someone growing organic trucks hahaha, thought maybe it was a typo or something; learn something new every day!


Oh and the regs are confusing to ME sometimes, so my bad, maybe confusing wasn't the right word to use..
Contradictory might have been more appropriate.


I understand what you're saying, aart. I wasn't picking on you, just making sure we aren't just lumping people into categories for the sake of discussion. We all have options both ways, or even combining the two "camps", but misinformation can cause even more confusion, and then we have a "civil war" on views and can migrate away from the truth of the topic.


Overuse of antibiotics is where we are now. Whatever led to it is in the past but we have to think honestly and hard about the future of food, because we have the options now. Some day we may no longer have an option.

 

[Curnow]

I understand what you're saying, aart. I wasn't picking on you, just making sure we aren't just lumping people into categories for the sake of discussion. We all have options both ways, or even combining the two "camps", but misinformation can cause even more confusion, and then we have a "civil war" on views and can migrate away from the truth of the topic.


Overuse of antibiotics is where we are now. Whatever led to it is in the past but we have to think honestly and hard about the future of food, because we have the options now. Some day we may no longer have an option.

True, True!

Unfortunately, the "camps" find it hard to agree or even listen and keep and open mind. Each can get so caught up in "my way is the best way" and "you are wrong, I'm right". Then "Agencies" and propaganda feed the fire!

I am a hay producer. Forage....feed....animal feed! I am organic....and not organic. I am not certified in anything, nor do I wish to be.
Just like the Truck Farmer.....my customers know my practices and we have built a very good reputation for the quality or our hay. I fertilize when needed with what is needed, seed when needed, don't use herbicides. We have good years and bad years depending on mother nature. Growing good quality, healthy grasses and clover keeps most weeds at bay. If there is a bale (small square or big round) that does not meet our high standards of good quality forage....we do not sell it! We, in turn, get premium prices for our product, not because we can stick a "Certified" label on it. I would not opt to be certified anything...I and my customers know what is produced...it speaks for itself! No need to invite and "Aganecy" in to tell me how I can or can't produce a quality product. We know our quality because our own animal eat it. We don't have to advertise for sales, our loyal regular customers are our best advertisement!

Once again, I do NOT know the CERTIFIED organic hoops people have to jump through, so I can't speak to that. It's too bad "Agencies" have made it such a racket....lower prices and better access to these certified products would bring on some healthy competition in the markets and be a win win for all.

 

[tlzimmerman]

See but here is the deal......both sides of this issue are food producers, and there is room in the market place for both ways of doing things (organic, vs modern farming practices). There are ways both organically and not organically to do it right and wrong. In the end, we are all out to give the consumer the best and safest product we can.

When it comes down to it though, its considered ok in society for people to call the highly regulated and researched and safe chemicals that modern ag uses "poison". That isn't ok. Those who raise things organically see themselves as inherently better, which you see in comments like "better the food supply". We need to support each other, not tear each other down. You can't do what we do out here without modern ag.

Lets support each other. Raising food organically is awesome, so is raising food using all the modern technology science has to offer. Chickens are awesome whether they eat organic non gmo fairy dust, or mutant GMO corn and soybeans soaked in roundup. LOL

 

[shortgrass]

See but here is the deal......both sides of this issue are food producers, and there is room in the market place for both ways of doing things (organic, vs modern farming practices).  There are ways both organically and not organically to do it right and wrong.  In the end, we are all out to give the consumer the best and safest product we can.  


When it comes down to it though, its considered ok in society for people to call the highly regulated and researched and safe chemicals that modern ag uses "poison".  That isn't ok.  Those who raise things organically see themselves as inherently better, which you see in comments like "better the food supply".  We need to support each other, not tear each other down.  You can't do what we do out here without modern ag.  


Lets support each other.  Raising food organically is awesome, so is raising food using all the modern technology science has to offer.  Chickens are awesome whether they eat organic non gmo fairy dust, or mutant GMO corn and soybeans soaked in roundup.  LOL

I agree that's its all helpful i n producing our food. And I agree I shouldn't use the word "poison" so I will knock that off...


But... Modern ag? If by that you mean tractors and sprinklers instead of setting tubes, then sure. But modern doesn't have to include round up and huge amounts of phosphates in the soil. We have never had to use most of these "modern" chemicals but can still push out 170 bu/acre of corn as long as we still have the tractors and the animals that we get the poo from for fertilizer


I actually had to ask m because I can't remember even ever using antibiotics on any of our cattle.. In 30 years, we:be used antibiotics 3 times. 2 times for mastitis and once for a cyst on a jaw. And all three cows were sold to the feedlots immediately.

Modern ag can be without the use of "inorganic chemicals". Organic doesn't necessarily mean "stone age"


But yeah, we can all get along and eat whatever food we want. We can dose or not dose if we want. But what choices do people that don't raise their own food have? I hope its the right to make an informed decision and its not being forced by propaganda or false information is all.


Back to antibiotics. Why does the government have to mandate something that we should have been more careful with in the first place? Because we aren't responsible enough with it, evidently. It has become a problem. More education is needed, not complain about it and pointing fingers.

I'll do better from now on to try not to separate into camps, I just ask that it go both ways and we not try to trash others livelihoods with bad past experiences. It's a process, food production, and one that obviously hasn't reached its pinnacle yet, never know what will be considered "modern" next

PS @Curnow I agree, its sad that the regs have to be so convoluted and goverment and paperwork is such a hassle. It's almost not worth it, but then again, it is

 

[tlzimmerman]

"But modern doesn't have to include round up and huge amounts of phosphates in the soil."

I am not sure what you are referring to about the phosphates. Our soil composition is studied, and we use all types of fertilizers depending on what is needed where, including manure, or synthetic nitrogen or phos. The thing about manure is, you can't really control what it contains......so you end up with extra of one compound or another sometimes. With our current technology we can map the yield in the fields as they are harvested, as well as map soil samples over the ground and program the sprayers or manure spreaders to apply more or less to specific areas of the field to balance things as best we can and be the most efficient we can. We can do the same when applying herbicides. Our modern machines even shut themselves off section by section as you come to the end of the field so we don't double spray, and apply only the amounts necessary. We don't even really use pesticides anymore because BT corn reduces our need to. Fungicides go on the wheat to reduce rust if we have wet years, and those are WAY safer than the old school fungicides like copper sulfate, which is organic approved .


No till farming is almost absolutely necessary in my part of the world. We live in an arid climate, with little irrigation. Year in and year out the biggest precursor to success or failure in our crops is rain, and how well we manage the moisture in our ground. This means that we till as little as possible, and the only way to control weeds without tilling is with products like roundup. Sure, we could go back to raising half as much as we do now....but farms out here would go under at an even more staggering rate than they do now if we did that. Corn where I live isn't really a viable crop most years if you have to cultivate it, but it becomes not only a viable option but a valuable tool when you add the roundup ready component. We can conserve the little moisture we have to get the highest yields possible, while also rotating it to places that have bind weed or grasses that are difficult to control if they are in a crop like wheat, but easy to control if you use roundup.

"Modern ag can be without the use of "inorganic chemicals." Not if we want to continue to achieve the yield increases and steady advances that have produced a surplus of food in our country even in the face of staggering population growth. We use less land and inputs to feed a person now than ever in human history....and its because of technology. Make no doubts about it.

"I hope its the right to make an informed decision and its not being forced by propaganda or false information is all." So do I, which is why I advocate and fight for modern agriculture and the use of these approved products as much as I can. Its why I bristle when people think the grain I produce is somehow poisoned. It isn't! Its why I shake my head when people say their chickens they raise are hormone free......alluding to the fact that chicken in the store has hormones. In reality, it is illegal to use hormones in pork and poultry production....ALL chicken is hormone free. Only beef has approved hormones, and the amount of hormone in an implant for a 12-1400 pound animal is 1/4000th the amount in a single birth control pill a woman takes. Its why I want to cry when people think the beef I produce has antibiotics in it, when 99% of the animals from birth to slaughter will never receive antibiotics....and the other 1% is well past their withdrawal period, and they have absolutely no antibiotic left in their system. The propaganda out there against everything I do is staggering.....and its put out there by people who have never stepped foot on a farm or who have a clear dollar to gain by hoping more consumers fear conventionally produced food. The science behind this stuff is very VERY sound. Without it......our operation couldn't exist. It would take way more manpower, way more time, it would cost way more, and in the end it would produce less.

We use antibiotics in our cattle only when necessary as well. I am doctoring one of mine now because she got a splinter rubbing on a tree and it abscessed. I have been around cattle people from small guys, to guys who own multiple 40-50000 head feedlots. Nobody doses with antibiotics without it being necessary. It introduces stress when you handle the animal, not to mention just the cost of the drugs themselves. Nuflor is $1 a mL......gets pricey quick!

"Back to antibiotics. Why does the government have to mandate something that we should have been more careful with in the first place?" I don't think they had to, I think they were lobbied by the same groups that tell you feedlot cattle are given antibiotics every day....when they aren't. I think it was driven by propaganda, and so do most of the producers and vets in my area. Same thing as groups of people trying to get the government to outlaw atrazine, or glyphosate, or any of these other chemicals they think are evil.

 

[shortgrass]

[COLOR=333333]"But modern doesn't have to include round up and huge amounts of phosphates in the soil."[/COLOR]

[COLOR=333333]I am not sure what you are referring to about the phosphates.  Our soil composition is studied, and we use all types of fertilizers depending on what is needed where, including manure, or synthetic nitrogen or phos. The thing about manure is, you can't really control what it contains......so you end up with extra of one compound or another sometimes. With our current technology we can map the yield in the fields as they are harvested, as well as map soil samples over the ground and program the sprayers or manure spreaders to apply more or less to specific areas of the field to balance things as best we can and be the most efficient we can.  We can do the same when applying herbicides.  Our modern machines even shut themselves off section by section as you come to the end of the field so we don't double spray, and apply only the amounts necessary.  We don't even really use pesticides anymore because BT corn reduces our need to.  Fungicides go on the wheat to reduce rust if we have wet years, and those are WAY safer than the old school fungicides like copper sulfate, which is organic approved .  [/COLOR]



No till farming is almost absolutely necessary in my part of the world.  We live in an arid climate, with little irrigation.  Year in and year out the biggest precursor to success or failure in our crops is rain, and how well we manage the moisture in our ground.  This means that we till as little as possible, and the only way to control weeds without tilling is with products like roundup.  Sure, we could go back to raising half as much as we do now....but farms out here would go under at an even more staggering rate than they do now if we did that.  Corn where I live isn't really a viable crop most years if you have to cultivate it, but it becomes not only a viable option but a valuable tool when you add the roundup ready component.  We can conserve the little moisture we have to get the highest yields possible, while also rotating it to places that have bind weed or grasses that are difficult to control if they are in a crop like wheat, but easy to control if you use roundup.  

[COLOR=333333]"Modern ag can be without the use of "inorganic chemicals."  Not if we want to continue to achieve the yield increases and steady advances that have produced a surplus of food in our country even in the face of staggering population growth.  We use less land and inputs to feed a person now than ever in human history....and its because of technology.  Make no doubts about it.  


"I hope its the right to make an informed decision and its not being forced by propaganda or false information is all."  So do I, which is why I advocate and fight for modern agriculture and the use of these approved products as much as I can.  Its why I bristle when people think the grain I produce is somehow poisoned.  It isn't!  Its why I shake my head when people say their chickens they raise are hormone free......alluding to the fact that chicken in the store has hormones.  In reality, it is illegal to use hormones in pork and poultry production....ALL chicken is hormone free.  Only beef has approved hormones, and the amount of hormone in an implant for a  12-1400 pound animal is 1/4000th the amount in a single birth control pill a woman takes.  Its why I want to cry when people think the beef I produce has antibiotics in it, when 99% of the animals from birth to slaughter will never receive antibiotics....and the other 1% is well past their withdrawal period, and they have absolutely no antibiotic left in their system.   The propaganda out there against everything I do is staggering.....and its put out there by people who have never stepped foot on a farm or who have a clear dollar to gain by hoping more consumers fear conventionally produced food.  The science behind this stuff is very VERY sound.  Without it......our operation couldn't exist.  It would take way more manpower, way more time, it would cost way more, and in the end it would produce less.  [/COLOR]


We use antibiotics in our cattle only when necessary as well.  I am doctoring one of mine now because she got a splinter rubbing on a tree and it abscessed.  I have been around cattle people from small guys, to guys who own multiple 40-50000 head feedlots.  Nobody doses with antibiotics without it being necessary.  It introduces stress when you handle the animal, not to mention just the cost of the drugs themselves.  Nuflor is $1 a mL......gets pricey quick!

[COLOR=333333]"Back to antibiotics. Why does the government have to mandate something that we should have been more careful with in the first place?"  I don't think they had to, I think they were lobbied by the same groups that tell you feedlot cattle are given antibiotics every day....when they aren't.  I think it was driven by propaganda, and so do most of the producers and vets in my area.  Same thing as groups of people trying to get the government to outlaw atrazine, or glyphosate, or any of these other chemicals they think are evil.  [/COLOR]






 

Well howdy there, neighbor I'm right next state lol, so I think we might have more similarities than differences here....


Somehow, I must have made it seem that I was against all forms of farming practices including modern chemicals and what not... I'm not. We have conventional and organic sections. We raise our corn in most the same way you do, we just use manure from our animals instead of fertilizers, and our animals are raised on our organic alfalfa and grass, so we do mostly know what's in the poo. Lol its poo. We happen to have a very high phosphate runoff into the water table here, so we are encouraged to keep it on the low end of the spectrum or cause problems downstream... But that's tracking way off the point.

I wasn't trying to debate the practices, I was going back in a circle trying to get back to the antibiotics. I failed

I was a wee bit offended at the assumption that organic producers are in on some kind of "scam" and felt a need to correct that. We don't get much more than fair market price for organic corn over non organic, but in between the field and the store, it gets inflated quite a bit. I'm just saying, don't blame the producers because someone with greedy hands gets in the middle and takes advantage of the masses. Organic production is not a lucrative moneymaker, its actually pretty hard to break even. At least, in my(our) part of the continent.

 

[centrarchid]

Mine either.

...and some folks are gonna find a way around these new laws anyway.
I've already seen alternatives suggested ie: fish meds.

On the farmed food-fish side, the ban has been in place for some time. The fish you write of must be for ornamental species / use. The list of antibiotics there is rather long but also very expensive.


I am going cold turkey with respect to meds with exception of Corid. That will be phased out as I pick birds producing cocci resistant chicks. Management helps but does not stop all problems when weather and wild vectors are involved with chickens kept outdoors with at least some contact with the ground.

 

[lilwildrabbit]

This ban im courious as to why I use the teramyicen on my bees too but now I got to take my bees to the vet to get mess?? I wanna see that me dragging a hive of bees into the vets office!!

 

[centrarchid]

This ban im courious as to why I use the teramyicen on my bees too but now I got to take my bees to the vet to get mess?? I wanna see that me dragging a hive of bees into the vets office!!

Vet will need to do sight visits so open your wallot. You might be able to take a frame of sick brood / workers to vet. With farmed fish, we take a few symptomatic fish to be looked at. Vet must still make periodic visits even when no health issues.


Consistent problem is having vet that knows about the odd ball critters.

 

[lilwildrabbit]

I applaud the decision to reign in the use of antibiotics.  I have been an Infection Control Nurse for 4 years now and I see the problems being created by the big ag and the healthcare community relating to overuse of antibiotics.  I work daily trying to educated people regarding using less antibiotics.  Over half of the antibiotics in America go to agriculture and this is an important step in the right direction in fighting antibiotic resistance. I think big corporate farms have substituted antibiotics for husbandry and I think it has lead to low grade meat production and increased the amount of resistance.  Believe me, I feel the healthcare community is as much to blame as well for the antibiotic resistance.  Some of the products of the big egg/meat companies is the reason why I raise my own eggs and meat.  In addition, I am glad to see more and more people going this route. 

I can see where some use anyibiotics too much. I keep bees and chickens have had bees for over 12 years now and have used about half a cup in that twelve years but I know if I have a bird sick I separate it from the flock and observe it and go about curing its alements but to use anything like that constantly only time I have seen so much used was by Drs to give out like candy for anything and everything. I can understand it's use but if I have a cold then why prescribe antibiotics?