27% Duckling Starter?

[Boggy Bottom Bantams]

as for the breeders feed.
If you read above, you'll see I listed this being a problem mainly in the developmental stages of life, day one threw week 12 to be exact. Protein is not much of a problem in fully developed birds. SO if you are basing this entire debate on adult birds, then the hole point has been missed.
I agree there, older birds do fine on it and can handle any level for the most part, BUT my on home experiments and lab work if you will concludes that starting and keep any type on high protein (over 20%) while in the growth stages of life, does invite the potential risk of developing all these problem. I would dare say all the years of keeping them, and seeing them hands on with different results from different levels of protein are pretty darn acurate to draw this conclusion.
Back in my earlier years, I used a mid 20% starter grower ration with all my waterfowl, and would end up with about 10% having some form of problem (remember I said not all will get it)
O kay, asked around from the old schoolers, they said lower the protein.
Next season and from then on, used 18% for the first 8 weeks 16% after that, never once had any more....that's pretty much how you find out this stuff without a lab in your house. Trail and error.... Just as good of a result as any documented testing in my book.
When porject x show result A over and over again
you modify project X (your control)
and result A changes to result B correcting result A's problem

Then a sain and logical man would conclude the item changed in the project was and underliying cause of the result you got in A

Right??
Tell me if I'm crazy but that's pretty much how they do it...


dont know a lot about dogS and jumping off cliffs, and there relivance to raising waterfowl though, LOL

 

[Wifezilla]

I am talking about ducklings and adult birds.

Your philosophy seems to be "if it aint broke don't fix it". Ok...my ducks aren't "broke", my ducklings didn't develop angelwing, did not have leg problems at any point, are not fat, and are perfectly healthy. Why am I the radical then?

The experts say a lot of things. I am asking for real data to back up what people say. I could go on for days with examples of where the experts got it not only a little wrong, but 180 degrees wrong. Kensian economics anyone???

 

[goosedragon]

Quote:
Keynesian economics you mean? but this is not the place for that debate. and I won't debate nutrition with someone who thinks a flyer put out by the Spokan Park is as valid as something put out by a University. Frankly I don't care what you feed your ducks or eat yourself. lets just say there are at least 2 schools of thought on this subject.

 

[Boggy Bottom Bantams]

Quote:
Where did you come to that conclusion?
Read my last post, IT WAS BROKE! Changing the protein levels FIXED IT! Now it aint broke, read thoroughly please..

Also, if you are fine with your feed , great, but my point is it's not wise to say yes, it's fine to feed that way, it's all a myth, nothing will happen to your birds, when I and SO MANY others have seen it first hand, and all have the same results with it.
Honestly any logical person can see that.

Got other threads to go to now, not getting far here any more.
Folks, draw your own conclusions here, you've heard both sides, still dont see any data disproving what I have said either on this thread. So I will continue to go with decades of experience. Take care of those 5 ducks Wifezilla!

 

[Wifezilla]

I am still waiting on those links to scientific papers showing I am wrong.

Haven't gotten a single one yet.

I am still reading through the university research papers I downloaded. The ones that examine the stomach contents of wild mallards during different seasons are really enlightening.

 

[Boggy Bottom Bantams]

alright here then

http://www.wildlifeinformation.org/Subdirectories_for_Search2/SampleDiseases/Angel_Wing.htm

note the very first cause listed here for the cause of angle wing in waterfowl , HIGH LEVELS OF PROTEIN IN THE DIET.
Also list vitamin deficiencies, and birth defects, but I see no carbs listed here

her's another
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel_Wing
again first cause listed is high calorie high protein intake, ESPECIALLY IN YOUNGER BIRDS

and heres an article by Metzer, outlining the results of a Bristush study done, which conclused it is a high cal high protein disorder.

http://www.metzerfarms.com/AngelWing.cfm?CustID=40751

Want some more reading?
I'll keep posting them for you if you'd like

well just for the heck of it.
Heres a copied section off a VERY long detail article published about this particular lab research on the subject. Just copied the part about the causes listed

"The type of musculoskeletal valgus deformity seen in this bird is believed to be caused by a diet containing excessive levels of protein, which lead to increased growth rates. Compromised calcium and phosphorus intake is likely also involved in the pathophysiology; periods of fast growth and feather production also promote hypovitaminosis [D.sub.3]. Consequently, the body size increases at a faster rate than bone ossificationossification /os·si·fi·ca·tion/ (os?i-fi-ka´shun) formation of or conversion into bone or a bony substance.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ectopic ossification
..... Click the link for more information.. (5) The weight of the growing flight feathers places excessive force on the muscles and ligaments of the carpal joint and the inadequately mineralized metacarpal bones, thus exacerbating the condition. (1,2,5,8) Angel wing is usually seen during the phase of blood feather growth. High levels of protein, calciumhosphorus (Ca : P) imbalances, and hypovitaminosis [D.sub.3] may also result in excessively rapid growth of the blood-filled (thus, relatively heavy) flight feathers carried on inadequately mineralized bone. (1) The condition is likely multifactorial, presumably

Affected waterfowl are usually those species that should naturally be eating grass containing a crude protein content of only 17%-18%. The condition increases in prevalence when these birds are fed grower pellets or cereals with a relatively higher protein content, resulting in faster growth than intended for their genetic makeup. (8) Excess available energy, excess levels of protein, rapid growth, and inadequate exercise are all considered underlying stressors. (4) These factors are well recognized to contribute to rotational deformities of the tibiotarsus in immature ostriches. (9-11) Another study investigating skeletal development in psittacine birds, however, implicated excessive levels of premature exercise in the high rate of juvenile osteodystrophy seen in hand-reared parrots. (12)

Rapid growth rate in combination with a relative imbalance in dietary levels of calcium, phosphorus, and vitamin [D.sub.3] may have contributed to the development of angel wing in the described case. The general recommendation is that growing raptors be offered as much variety as possible to ensure a balanced diet. Feeding a limited number of food types increases the risk of calcium : phosphorus (Ca : P) imbalances, excess fat intake, and vitamin and mineral deficiencies, which can result in management-related diseases, such as metabolic bone disease and musculoskeletal deformities, such as angel wing. (7) The Northern goshawk fledgling in this case report was fed 1-day-old chicks. Some studies discuss possible low levels of calcium contained in chicks this age, but other studies state that 1-day-old chicks have the correct Ca : P ratio and suitable calcium levels for growing birds of prey. (13,14) The composition of the food fed also needs to be taken into consideration. When feeding this fledgling, the owner commonly removed the yolk from the 1-day-old chicks, thus potentially reducing the amount of available vitamins, lipids, and carotenes. (15) The Ca: P ratio in deyolked 1-day-old chicks is decreased relative to that in complete 1-day-old chicks (1.17:1 and 1.3:1, respectively). (15) In some cases, fledglings demonstrating angel wing deformities may ultimately suffer from a relative Ca : P imbalance, but this may be more likely due to an excessive growth rate rather than an insufficient diet. "

 

[katharinad]

Knock yourself out:
http://ps.fass.org/

 

[Boggy Bottom Bantams]

Quote:
dont seem to be that hard to find details on a scientific level if you look does it Katharinad

 

[HiddenHill Heretic]

I think it is fine to agree to disagree, but I am concerned that spreading disagreed upon info on such a crucial issue may be a disservice to newer duck junkies such as myself. The studies and mass of hands on evidence seem to point toward lower protein levels. I agree with Wifezilla about the dangers of agribusiness, and the propaganda, corruption and profiteering involved in the conversion of the American diet. Scary indeed. To intermingle those easily acceptable facts with questionable duck dietary info seems....curious. This is, as always, a fascinating conversation, and this thread may prove to be the clearest one.

 

[Wifezilla]

The only wild waterfowl populations known to be affected are those fed by man. In Sweden, ten different park populations of Canada geese produced angel wing

People are at the park feeding ducks and geese game bird feed? NO! They are feeding them bread.

NOT a hard science article. NOT a controlled study. In fact it is an article I found a while back. It lists high protein AND high energy (carbs). Which one is the cause? Is it both? What proportion leads to angel wing? This article brings up questions while answering very little. I will look at the others later.​