27% Duckling Starter?

[Wifezilla]

I do agree a good proper study is in order and could easily put this topic to rest..

As for following the consensus and wild birds being so different from their domestic cousins, I have to disagree. The consensus among many vets is that corn is perfectly fine to feed to dogs and cats. They even have their own displays in their office pimping Hills or Science Diet "prescription" corn based food. Processed corn is not something a wolf or wild dog eats. Same with cats. Feeding them a corn based diet results in obesity, hot spots, allergies, liver disease, diabetes, arthritis, etc... Eliminating non-biologically appropriate food from a dogs diet has resulted in an entire raw for and B.A.R.F. diet movement. As for cats (and ferrets), they are obligate carnivores. They should never be fed corn, soy or other fillers. In the entire pet food industry, they seem to have really nailed the micronutrients and HAVE helped extend the lives of pets, but on the macronutrient level, they get a fail. The longer life of the pet ends up with the pet's senior years being plagued by chronic disease.

I am perfectly aware that birds aren't people...even if we spoil our birds like they were sometimes

Until we get that double-blind placebo controlled study I will have to continue to experiment on my small scale operation. Next Spring I will have a generation of animals totally raised on game bird feed.

 

[Surehatch]

Quote:
thank you for clearing up this myth

 

[destinduck]

I would listen to citychicker,BBB,KATERINAD ,me and every other breeder that has raised 100,s of ducks Too much protien when young causes angelwing and anytime I see a newbie raise this question I will tell that person,Wifezilla may know her nutrition well on other species but for ducks I KNOW I and many others have raised and kept more ducks than she may ever have. Not to be mean but call anybody that sells wild ducks TODAY and see what they say about feeding baby ducks too much protien and yes also excersize helps prevent angelwing .Plus there has been many many studies to confirm this . again call breeders,people that sell lots of ducks for many years just see what THEY say

 

[katharinad]

I also say why use premium gas if regular works fine. Sounds like a waste of money on the extra they don't really need. There is no need to turbo charge food, unless you are eager to get your duck fast to butchering age. Ducks are fine with 14%, if they are not laying eggs. 16-17% seems to be fine for every other time, and when they are laying. 20% if you want to get your ducks ready for an exhibition to condition their feathers. Vitamins and minerals need to be added when raising for hatching eggs, to avoid early death and deformities in the eggs. Oyster shell should be served on the side for laying females to reduce the calcium intake in males, which is not too good for them. Niacin may need to be added, depending on their feed. Seems to be rather simple to me.

 

[Wifezilla]

there has been many many studies to confirm this

PLEASE link me directly to these studies.

call breeders,people that sell lots of ducks for many years just see what THEY say

Most vets tell you corn is fine for dogs. Again, I am not impressed by consensus without a scientific basis.​

 

[Boggy Bottom Bantams]

Quote:
PLEASE link me directly to these studies.

call breeders,people that sell lots of ducks for many years just see what THEY say

Most vets tell you corn is fine for dogs. Again, I am not impressed by consensus without a scientific basis.​

personally, 25 years of hands on experience, like I said with 100 species, and literally 10's of thousands of ducks raised, including many arctic and endangered species.
Unless they are specifically a carnivorous duck (mergansers, goldeneye, eider, smew etc) , then plain and simple, hi protein equals these problems, it is not a myth, it has been proven on farms over and over again. One or 2 or 100 studies will not convince me otherwise, as I personally have seen it hundreds of time, hands on with birds here, and ones on other farms. The common link is always hi protein food, especially at an early age.
Hate to beat this to death, but to say other wise is just inviting folks to have problems.
Same is true with peafowl breeders and turkey breeders (which I too have quite a few of). Hi protein in starting birds will almost always result in leg /joint problems.
Seen that 100's of times as well.
It is all more prone in the early developmental stages of life when the muscle and skeletal structures are still developing.
All these birds do just fine on 16-18% feeds. More is not needed, so why risk it? Even if there is , humor me here, a small chance of what I am saying to be true, with the lower percentages doing the job with no risk, why chance it.....

 

[destinduck]

Exactly Aubrey, experience is best, Wifezilla has her mind made up and nothing will change it. But every time I see her or anybody else give this advice to people just starting out with ducks It burns me up.

I have said the EXACT words to her before on a similar thread WHY TAKE THE CHANCE ON HIGH PROTIEN AND GET ANGELWING ?!!!! And I WILL BEAT IT TO DEATH ,Why? So people DONT have problems !.Maybe one day when she raises hundreds of birds for many years such as you,I,and EVERY breeder I know has, and only after she has done HER own scientific basis analaysis,(cause its very clear experience and breeder consensus means absolutely nothing to her on this subject)she too will come to this conclusion and see the error of her ways.

 

[Wifezilla]

Well destin, since I am one of the very few people feeding high protein and have no angelwing or leg problems, while there are people feeding 16% protein getting angel wing AND leg problems, I guess I will have to keep going with what I know and you can keep going by what you know. 2 of the ducks I adopted as adults were fed flock raiser (I think that is 16% protein) and had leg issues along with pin holes in their foot webbing. After a week on game bird feed they were fine.

Still waiting for those actual study links. I have ones I dug up on turkeys and broilers that I am reading through. While there is plenty of data about lack of protein causing fertility problems and reducing egg laying, there is no data saying high protein causes leg problems. In fact, many of the studies are showing that "excess" protein caused no difference in body composition, but in some cases the birds livers were smaller on higher protein. Since corn is a major cause of enlarged liver, this didn't surprise me. I'll keep digging to see if I can find up some real science on waterfowl.

 

[Boggy Bottom Bantams]

one saving grace is, NOT all will get problems on high protein, but it increases the risk, IMO and personal experience. I am sure after many years of doing, you will have to change your words on that, just give it some time you'll eventually get some.
Personally, I dont know your experience level on waterfowl. I m sure your are passionate about them, but time and hands on experience keeping them, in various breeds / species always tells the tail.

As far as REAL science goes, well lab results dont mean much to me after doing it this long, hands on work and experience, with visually seeing and holding the results in my hands do, kind of my own personal science lab I would say with a much longer duration period than one field test. I'll be just as stubborn on my end of it,

Hey, ever wondered why you are " one of the very few people feeding high protein" ? Just a thought, something to make you say, hum...
when 100's of long time breeders of a particular species tell you something about the care of that species, and more importantly, it's the same exact thing that all are saying, why do you need to have "science" tell you the same thing, or in this case disprove them. Good bet is, they are on to something with it and I'd listen, that how I learned....

 

[Wifezilla]

If everyone jumped off a cliff, would I do it too?

Much of my research covers the problem with scientific consensus and how little it actually has to do with science. "'Cause everyone else is doing it" is not a convincing argument.

For grins and giggles, if you were to design a study to put this question to rest once and for all, how would you do it? I have some specific ideas, but i am interested in seeing what others think on this. Plus we do have a student involved in this thread. Who knows...maybe she needs a doctorate topic

Here is bird farm that designed 24% feed for breeders. Interesting...
http://www.spicerbirdfarm.com/spicerfeed.html