3 Sisters Method question and adaptation question?

[nao57]

So... supposedly people say the 3 sisters method of planting beans, corn, and squash together is amazing and works well. it seems to somehow take off when the roots of the 3 plants become interconnected and start feeding each other (?) And because beans are nitrogen fixers this would especially make it work well.

I'm curious if you have thoughts on that?

Also, my main question is... I'm curious what else could be substituted or used in this type of combo? Like pumpkins work interchangeably with squash. And they sure as hell taste better. So that should work. But it seems like if you were changing other things in there you'd have to keep at least 1 of them to be the nitrogen fixer; which would be the beans...

I'm also wondering if you can do something with tomato and cucumbers with a nitrogen fixer? Or some other combo? What do you think?

And part of why I asked about tomato and cucumbers interlinked is that the last year and the year before I had the cucumbers planted WITH the tomato plants. And the cucumbers didn't take off and start producing until the tomato plants had gotten really big and basically made a forest mess with each other and the cucumbers... but if they were competing for energy then in theory I shouldn't have gotten any cucumber harvest at all. Instead I got cucumber production go up when they should have been drowned out from the tomato stuff.

So maybe more stuff can interconnect and share resources besides just corn, beans, and squash?

I really hope for some feedback on this and to understand it better. Because it seems like other combinations would be possible.

Thank you!

 

[Chris2018]

I may upset some believers in the "Three Sister" system but there is more myth than truth with the system.
Native Americans did use the "Three Sister" system, but not because it was a productive system BUT because it was an easy/ "lazy" way of growing. What is left out when sites talking about the "Three Sisters" is that the Maya peoples and other Mesoamerican people of Central America grew these crops for 2 years and then the land is left for 8 years to recover. Also, that beans just like other leguminous plants, have a unique ability to form a symbiotic relationship with a soil bacteria called Rhizobia and these bacteria are the ones that take Nitrogen for the air not the beans themselves. The Rhizobia feed the Nitrogen to the host plant. The host plant does not add any Nitrogen to the soil and if the soil does not contain Rhizobia or the seeds are not coated with the correct inoculant the beans will consume Nitrogen just like and other vegetable.

There is some "companion" planting that works like cover crops, living mulch but most are wives' tales or old information that came around before we had a good understanding on plant nutrition, soil life and soil bacteria.

 

[Birdsonghill]

I have had great success with Three sister plantings of heirloom corns, pole beans and heritage Pumpkins. I have found that I can grow great corn crops with no added fertilizer other than a couple handfulls of compost in the hill for the melons and beans. The corn should be up almost a foot tall when you plant the beans. The Seminole pumpkins I grow do help shade out weeds somewhat when they get growing large with vines up to thirty feet long. I have to weed the young plants a couple times to get them ahead of the weeds then just let all but the tallest weeds grow. I now have abandoned this method again, for mechanical cultivation between rows due to old age and less weeding to get the crop started well. Modern sweet corn fairs less well and does not work for me in a three sisters garden. I grow heirloom field corns, like Tennessee Red Cob or Kentucky Butcher or similar that grow over ten feet tall and make shade themselves, thrive without pesticides and have lower nitrogen requirements than modern varieties to produce well. Good luck gardeners!

 

[nao57]

I have had great success with Three sister plantings of heirloom corns, pole beans and heritage Pumpkins. I have found that I can grow great corn crops with no added fertilizer other than a couple handfulls of compost in the hill for the melons and beans. The corn should be up almost a foot tall when you plant the beans. The Seminole pumpkins I grow do help shade out weeds somewhat when they get growing large with vines up to thirty feet long. I have to weed the young plants a couple times to get them ahead of the weeds then just let all but the tallest weeds grow. I now have abandoned this method again, for mechanical cultivation between rows due to old age and less weeding to get the crop started well. Modern sweet corn fairs less well and does not work for me in a three sisters garden. I grow heirloom field corns, like Tennessee Red Cob or Kentucky Butcher or similar that grow over ten feet tall and make shade themselves, thrive without pesticides and have lower nitrogen requirements than modern varieties to produce well. Good luck gardeners!

Thank you for your input! Also, I like that you mentioned heirloom varieties. And people often forget they may have different nutrient requirements than the GMO versions.

Its also kind of exciting when things actually work and when you come across new ideas.

 

[Birdsonghill]

I thought I might mention the use of silver topped plastic mulch/ground cover under cucumbers ,squash, eggplants , etc. It does seem to help a bit with too hot of soil like may occur under black plastic in hot climates, like mine and more important to me, seems to lesson some insect pressure, while controlling weeds. The experts say that it confuses or interferes with their finding their targeted plants someway. It will not stop insect attacks, but seems to slow it down a bit, while keeping the soil cooler and weed free. The plastic is less a negative if you turn it in to be recycled. The down side is it may be blinding to your eyes if you do not wear sunglasses when in the garden around it. Far from the Three Sisters method but I use many techniques in my gardening. I do not use any pesticides or fertilizers that are not organic approved and safe in my gardens. Happy gardening!

 

[Birdsonghill]

I forgot to repeat statements about how well lettuce and garlic or onions do together in companion plantings. I Plant the garlic or onions in two rows at 12 to 18 inches apart and baby lettuce starts in between the started garlic/onions. Cover with a light row cover fabric over #9 wire hoops or similar. The lettuce helps shade out weeds between the garlic and they both thrive together. The lettuce is ready late winter or early spring here and may be replanted between the slower growing garlic. My fall planted garlic is ready in June.

 

[Chris2018]

Thank you for your input! Also, I like that you mentioned heirloom varieties. And people often forget they may have different nutrient requirements than the GMO versions.

Its also kind of exciting when things actually work and when you come across new ideas.

GMO or more correctly BE (Bioengineered) seeds/plants are next to imposable for a backyard gardener to get so their soil and nutrient requirements really don't apply here.

As for Heirloom and Hybrid, there soil and nutrient requirements are nearly the same.

 

[Birdsonghill]

GMO or more correctly BE (Bioengineered) seeds/plants are next to imposable for a backyard gardener to get so their soil and nutrient requirements really don't apply here.

As for Heirloom and Hybrid, there soil and nutrient requirements are nearly the same.

Soil and nutrient requirements vary widely between cultivars of the same plants, sometimes, as does rainfall required to produce a crop. Hundreds of years of farming experiences clearly indicate different crops/cultivars fair for better or worse in different climate conditions, soils and fertility requirements. Hybrid vigor is often seen and may improve aspects over either of the parents or combine various aspects. The failures to produce desired outcomes fall by the wayside, while plants exhibiting desirable aspects may be marketed. GMO un-natural science experiments on natural plants should be shunned for their inherent danger of unknown consequences that may result from their release into the natural environment. The bulk of corn, soybeans, canola seed and more produced these days are GMO in the "developed" world these days. A little science/biology in school doesn't give the average gardener the depth of the complexities involved in plant biology and their interaction with natural forces in the real worlds gardens. Explain why Tennessee Red cob corn thrives growing ten feet tall and producing crops in hot drought years when all hybrids fail. Or why it does that with No supplemental fertilization after a mere handful of good natural compost at planting time. Try that with the hybrids and you will start healthier plants but they will need supplemental fertilization applications of at least some source of nitrogen in order to produce good crops. I grow hybrids in a limited fashion because some of them produce awesome fruit or abundance in an organic system or with chemical byproduct fertilization. The disease resistance and health and flavor are enhanced a bit as well with the compost/organic methods. If you are healthier eating a good diet sourced from clean sources, it stands to reason that plants will do the same. I was a licensed horticultural chemical applicator in my state and used chemicals extensively for over 20 years to control pest for my customers. I learned by observation and the history of my experiences with the corporate sponsors of chemicals that chemistry is fairly precise but biology is bigger than most chemist can picture in their minds. The complexities of soil biology and the multitude of organisms we know of and how they interact is still a vast wilderness for even the "experts". We humans are not all the same ,though we share most characteristics and hybrids and heirlooms are not all the same either.

 

[Chris2018]

Soil and nutrient requirements vary widely between cultivars of the same plants, sometimes, as does rainfall required to produce a crop. Hundreds of years of farming experiences clearly indicate different crops/cultivars fair for better or worse in different climate conditions, soils and fertility requirements. Hybrid vigor is often seen and may improve aspects over either of the parents or combine various aspects. The failures to produce desired outcomes fall by the wayside, while plants exhibiting desirable aspects may be marketed. GMO un-natural science experiments on natural plants should be shunned for their inherent danger of unknown consequences that may result from their release into the natural environment. The bulk of corn, soybeans, canola seed and more produced these days are GMO in the "developed" world these days. A little science/biology in school doesn't give the average gardener the depth of the complexities involved in plant biology and their interaction with natural forces in the real worlds gardens. Explain why Tennessee Red cob corn thrives growing ten feet tall and producing crops in hot drought years when all hybrids fail. Or why it does that with No supplemental fertilization after a mere handful of good natural compost at planting time. Try that with the hybrids and you will start healthier plants but they will need supplemental fertilization applications of at least some source of nitrogen in order to produce good crops. I grow hybrids in a limited fashion because some of them produce awesome fruit or abundance in an organic system or with chemical byproduct fertilization. The disease resistance and health and flavor are enhanced a bit as well with the compost/organic methods. If you are healthier eating a good diet sourced from clean sources, it stands to reason that plants will do the same. I was a licensed horticultural chemical applicator in my state and used chemicals extensively for over 20 years to control pest for my customers. I learned by observation and the history of my experiences with the corporate sponsors of chemicals that chemistry is fairly precise but biology is bigger than most chemist can picture in their minds. The complexities of soil biology and the multitude of organisms we know of and how they interact is still a vast wilderness for even the "experts". We humans are not all the same ,though we share most characteristics and hybrids and heirlooms are not all the same either.

Most of this post is a very long-winded post that has very little to do with what I said and that was, "As for Heirloom and Hybrid, there soil and nutrient requirements are nearly the same.".
In the 40+ years of being in and around the agriculture industry I have grown thousands of crops, and I have yet seen a difference in the soil or nutritional needs between an Heirloom a Hybrid of the same cultivar, for example a JTD (Heirloom Tomato) requires the same type of soil and nutrients as a Red Bounty (Hybrid Tomato).
There are some differences in the climate, resistance in disease and pest, flavor, vigor, and production.

I agree with what you said about Bioengineered crops, and you can add Alfalfa, Russet Potatoes, Cotton, Rice (Golden Rice). You could through Apples, Egg Plant, Pineapple (Pink), Papaya, and Squash in there but there not as big as the previous ones listed (yet).

You said something about explaining why Tennessee Red Cob does so well in hot drought years. That would be because it was bred for that climate, Temperature, rainfall etc. When the Tennessee Red Cob way first Hybridized (it's an Heirloom now) they wanted a Dent corn that would grow well in that climate, so they bred a Dent corn that would so well in a hot, dry climate.

As a grower I am certified non-GMO and grow both Heirloom and Hybrid crops organically (I'm not certified organic but do grow by USDA organic standards) and there is a very big difference between a crop properly grown organically and a crop grown synthetically but the soil and nutrient requirements are the same. Organically grown crops just receive the nutrients in a more natural form and rely on the soil life more so than a synthetic grower (when grown in soil).
Now one of biggest differences is that an organically grown crop will contain more antioxidants (40+ percent more) than the exact same crop crown synthetically, also organically grown crops contain more nutrients, better flavor and better texture than a synthetically grown crop. There is other deference's like not using "pesticides", herbicides, or other harmful chemicals, and overall healthier food for you but you get the idea.

 

[akroberts1085]

Last year I planted lettuce under my tomato plants and spinach under my pepper plants. I got a good crop of spinach but my lettuce crop was excellent. My lettuce lasted for about 4 or 5 months. This year my corn is near the squash and some bean plants and doing really good. I wouldn't exactly consider it to be the 3 sisters theory however more a case of companion planting. Some of my beans are next to my cucumber plant and both are doing well. I think I need to get some lettuce planted around the base of my tomatoes to see if they might produce better.