_- Houdan Topic -_ POST SOME PICS! TALK ABOUT YOUR HOUDANS!

[exop]

Quote:
Hi, glad to see this topic active!

The American V-comb variety was supposedly selected from small-combed sports of the leaf or antler comb variety... the original American standard of 1875 required a leaf comb. The story of the change over to a V-comb in the 1880s is given by C.E. Petersen in the Poultry Book (by Harrison Weir et al, 1905). (If you're interested in the breed it's well worth reading the whole chapter on the Houdan... there are some neat photos too.) Petersen makes the comb change sound like an aesthetic decision... the V comb is "much neater" looking. It's hard to say what else may have gone into the APA's decision since we don't have a record of what they actually discussed. Probably the way the leaf comb was written up in the standard had something to do with people's willingness to ditch it:

American Standard of Excellence, 1875 :

(link) COMB: Bright red, well-developed, and antler-like, retreating rather backwards into the crest, the outside opening like two leaves of a book, the centre having the appearance of an ill-shaped, long strawberry.

Who wants to raise a bird with a comb like "an ill-shaped strawberry". Poor choice of words, really... "shaped like a butterfly" sounds much better. The "strawberry" becomes the butterfly's body, and the "leaves" are its wings.

People being people, I think it's likely that over time, the requirement for a V-comb may have led to some interbreeding with the Polish as less scrupulous breeders tried to "correct" their Houdans' natural leaf comb.

This in turn would have lowered the birds' weight and reduced their utility as a meat bird. Even in 1905, Petersen wrote of how size was becoming a problem for the breed.

At any rate, you can still see remnants of the leaf comb / antler conformation in some U.S. stock. A couple of the birds from my large Cackle order this spring have little jaggies in their comb front. With effort and good starting stock, it's possible you could select a leaf comb back into existence.

It does seem strange to me that a small but vocal minority should make an "innovation" in a breed by giving it a comb which it never had before, and manage to rush this into the standard in a matter of a few years, effectively banning the breed in its original conformation. (The gentleman who created the V comb only started raising Houdans in 1871... and his new comb made it into the revised standard of 1883.)

NB, Rarefeathers, while I can't speak to the lineage of any current U.S. Houdans, it may interest you to hear that early Houdans in France not infrequently had some red or gold showing in their plumage.​

 

[SEMCNABB]

I set 10 Houdan eggs on 9/11 and so far all look good. I have been looking for them but are to hard to fine. Hope I get a good hatch.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

Hmmm....If I were to take up Houdans again, I'd out-cross Houdan males to big typey Dorking females. I would then take this generation of Houdan X Dorking and breed them to each other. I'd hatch hundreds of them and cull down to the few that would show strong Houdan characteristics. Most of them, if not all of them, would have the leaf comb, but some might come through as the V. However, they'd be very vigorous and have the original and proper Houdan size. They are essentially a Dorking-Polish cross. They should have meat like a Dorking and lay like a Polish.

 

[exop]

I would be cautious about crossing to other breeds... the fifth toe of the Houdan is not positive evidence of a cross to the Dorking in the past, rather, it suggests that the two breeds share some ancestry sometime in the last couple thousand years (if we are to accept that the Dorking is descended from the 5 toed fowl that was described by the Roman writer Columella and likely traded throughout the Roman Empire). According to somebody I was reading recently (I will try to find the citation) birds with a fifth toe used to show up fairly frequently in British and Continental breeds before the idea of "breeding to standard" and eliminating deviations took hold among traders in poultry.

At any rate, there were several schools of thought in the 1800s about the possibility of a relationship to the Dorking and even about whether or not the two breeds really were similar in body shape. (Our American Dorking of today, by the way, is quite different from the Dorking of the early 1800s - with a body "round, plump, and short" according to H.D. Richardson in 1847).

I think there's enough left of the Mottled Houdan in the USA to work with it successfully... outcrossing to another breed should not be necessary. I've been very encouraged by my Houdans from Cackle. They are much better than anything I would ever have expected from a hatchery... in type as well as vigor. I can't express what a positive surprise they were. I had been warned by various people that all the Houdans to be found in the U.S. were terrible... Barb Piper's stock having been lost, the breed was now in dire straits... all birds runty and poorly typed... dreadful mottling... etc.

As for size, my cockerels from a May 4 hatch weighed in yesterday, September 18, at 19 weeks old, from 4 Lb 5 oz to 4 Lb 12 oz. Not too bad really, and these are straight from the hatchery. Size may need to be worked on but this isn't too shabby for a starting point, and of course they are still growing.

Will post some pictures. I have seen enough poor hatchery Houdans with a half-Houdan appearance that I wouldn't believe me either...

 

[paris_r]

Quote:
you seem well read on the history stuff and references- are you an academic? I got mine from Cackle too. I don't know much about the breed (I'm a herpetologist-so very new to birds although they do have their similarities). we just started in chickens in Feb. we went from 6 backyard chickens that were here when I moved in to over 100 (~120). I liked Houdans from what I found out when researching breeds. Odd thing is they were REALLY intelligent seeming as peeps -they always seemed to be watching us and summing us up. As adults they seem to have too much of the Polish is them!

A few questions / comments here.
-how soon till they are sexable (mine are from 4/19)? will I see crowing or combs first? (I do have one with a less round more linear crest-but no true signs of 'roosterhood')
-from my understanding the cackle ones have the most desirable legs with the black and white mottling. What else is there to look for for show quality (we are fine as long as we wont be instantly DQ'd in an APA show) I am unsure on their standard. All I know is that these do have the well upturned 5th toe, and no other colour than black/white in their feathers-is there much that can DQ them?
-from what I have read they USED to be known for egg production but then with the Polish genes this now isn't true. Problem is I have also read that Polish are hit or miss on production-some doing well and others not. So what is the normal expectation on production?
-are they known for being good mothers?
-how long will I have to wait for these guys to begin laying?

 

[Rare Feathers Farm]

I have bantam mottleds & whites....and more recently I acquired a LF white roo....I'm not sure if I'll stick with bantam whites (eat less, take up less room) or if I'll find a hen for this LF white roo?

He's a sweet boy....has a crooked toe that was caused by a bad infection that went untreated and blew out the joint on his toe....otherwise, he could probably be shown.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

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That's cool, but I'd still go with the cross. Regardless of whether or not they're actually derived from the Dorking, they're complimentary--rather practically identical types-are such that it could be a powerful boost, and internally they are comparable in meat qualities. As for those weights, they're not horrible, but neither are they that good. Having worked with them for a solid period of time, they're delicious but far too small.

The best I've ever seen are from a breeder in MA whose line actually does stretch back to Pipers. They're quite something, but he's beginning to have laying difficulties.

Another interesting hatchery for them is Hoffman in PA. They're far too small, but their general type isn't too bad.

 

[exop]

Quote:
I guess I'm coming at this from a conservation - genetics point of view, rather than strict utility... I would like to stick with the genes that are already in the Houdan and not dilute the breed any further or introduce new, unquantifiable gene combinations.

As for those weights, they're not horrible, but neither are they that good. Having worked with them for a solid period of time, they're delicious but far too small.

I wouldn't say they were fantastic, just a lot better than I expected. Were your Mottled Houdans from Cackle originally too? I wasn't sure if you had had Mottled Houdans as well as White - are you still raising White?

Another interesting hatchery for them is Hoffman in PA. They're far too small, but their general type isn't too bad.

When I called Hoffmann last year, I somehow wound up with the impression that their Houdans are handled by Cackle?

Best - exop​

 

[exop]

Quote:
From a 4/19 hatch... you should definitely be getting some crowing by now. I didn't make a note of when mine first crowed but I had males trying to mate with females at 10 weeks of age (July 12). Maybe you have lucked out so to speak, and gotten all females? If you have any cockerels, the feathers on their crests will be growing in long and pointy like daggers. The overall crest will look kind of shaggy. Pullets, the crest feathers will have a rounded end like a fingertip, and the crest will be more of a smooth, motorcycle helmet shape.

What else is there to look for for show quality (we are fine as long as we wont be instantly DQ'd in an APA show) I am unsure on their standard. All I know is that these do have the well upturned 5th toe, and no other colour than black/white in their feathers-is there much that can DQ them?

You would want a definite beard, and small wattles... Body shape, crest shape, tail shape, are all important in determining whether or not a bird looks like a "good Houdan" - it's hard to quantify these, you would be best advised to look at some pictures for an idea. I wasn't exaggerating about there being good photos in The Poultry Book - Petersen must have been a complete photography nut. There are also the Arthur Schilling illustrations (rooster and hen) from the 1910 APA standard, and see if you can find a copy of the current APA standard.

By the way, you're going to want a well shaped V comb for show quality... on pullets, you may need to push the crest back with your fingers to get a proper look at the comb. There should be a comb somewhere in there.

-are they known for being good mothers?

They're known for being non-setters...

Also, after they shed all those white ventral juvenile feathers, their first mottled feathers will grow in extra dark. Over time, as the birds molt each year, the amount of white mottling will increase. (They call this "becoming gayer"). A young pullet whose mottling shows well, may have too much white on her when she is a few years older. The converse is true, if you want to show an older hen, be on the lookout for a pullet who is on the dark side, as she will be lighter when older.

Best - exop​

 

[V Comb]

Whew - It's been a long time. My girl has started to lay nice medium sized white eggs and my boy has developed quite the comb. They are absolutely beautiful and sooo friendly. I'll get some pictures up soon.