A Controversy: Breeders vs. Hatcheries

[Boggy Bottom Bantams]

Quote:
how do you figure started birds are culls?

We talked about this above. Any reputable breeder will let you know right from the start what quality they are. Most sell pet quality, breeder quality, and show quality, with the price being a reflection of the quality.

Hatching eggs are a good way to get a start, but you still have to hope you get a few good ones. 1 in 10 is pretty good odds if show quality parents were used on getting a show quality chick.
So , that being said, you are way better off, if show quality is your goal, to buy started show quality birds from a reputable breeder.
Otherwise, it's all just a big gamble and you may not get any good birds.

And people that sell, SQ EGGS, I always shy away from. Call them eggs from show lines or what ever, but no egg is show quality, neither is a chick. You'll just never know til it grows up. So if breeder and show quality are your goals, dont be scared to buy birds. You'll get what you pay for, get there much quicker, and from there can start culling to add to your flock.

Truth be known, a lot of the hard core breeders kill any and all pet quality chicks they raise to prevent diluting of good lines by others.

Yes, they often keep the best of the very best, no one can blame them there, but if you raise 400 or so, you cant keep them all, and they by far wont all be culls.

Just find a good breeder who is well known for what he or she does.
Ask quality and line questions
ask to see pics or look at the actual birds you are buying, etc.

Reputable breeders dont screw folks over, their name is too important to them and it doenst take long to get a bad one if you practice like that.

 

[Kavellion]

You know what I mean when I say cull. Something they dont want. Not needed. Unwanted. Hope that brings some clarification.

 

[Neil Grassbaugh]

If you want to be a competitor at annual specialty poultry shows you will not become with stock from mail order hatcheries.
No matter how hard you try, how long you work at it or how lucky you are.

There are "beeding farms" that sell chicks as a business that you can expect better of. Those would be Urch/Turnland, Shadylane and Horstman, et.al.

To the best of my knowledge none of the big, well known, mail order hatcheries are or have high ranking employees that are members of the APA or ABA. Let alone being judges qualified to evaluate a wide number of exhibition birds.

 

[Boggy Bottom Bantams]

Quote:
apparently I dont. A cull is a bird whos only purpose in life is a yard bird pet, not good for breeding, showing or anything.

Saying you wouldnt buy started birds because they are ALL culls is unfounded. Like I said, you have a choice of 3 quality classes when buying from a breeder, pet ( the culls) breeders and show quality. All you have to do is ask what quality these are. Breeders are not going to sell you a cull and charge you or call it a breeder or show quality bird.


Like I said, yes they often keep back a few or the extremely best for themselves, but that does not class all the remaining birds as culls.

Many breeders actually get beat at shows by birds they have sold to others.

Just because they didnt keep the bird for themselves doesnt mean it's junk ( a cull in chicken talk)

 

[Oregon Blues]

[[[......You know what I mean when I say cull. Something they dont want.....]]]]]

Well, that's the first time I've heard that definition. But I'm not the dictionary police and don't much care what you think the definition is.

Just because a breeder doesn't want a bird does not mean that it is not top exhibition quality and not very suitable to use as breeding stock.

Say I want 5 new ducks as replacement show and breeding stock. I will put 100 eggs into the incubator, knowing that at least 10% of my hatch will be supreme show prospects. Then half of them will be drakes and the other half will be the 5 ducks I want as replacement.

But I might very easily get 30 of those hatchlings be top quality. Very possible. I have excellent genetics and I plan my breedings carefully. I only want to keep 5 of them. The other 25 are top quality, I just don't have room to keep them. So why would you think they are worthless rejects?

In fact, if you buy chicks as day olds from a well planned hatch, you might end up with the very best one, because it is not possible to tell which one is the best when they are day olds.

With my day old Swedish, I can tell who is mis-marked and they will go into the freezer. I can tell who is short bodied and I can tell a very little bit about the heads and how the bill is set on. Other than that, it is simply wait and see how they grow. Someone could possible come and buy a day old with nice markings, short body, and calm nature and end up with a Grand Champion Waterfowl, because I can't tell which one is the best at that age.

Take a dozen ducks that are very close in quality and the winner will belong to the fellow who is the best at fitting out a duck to show. I can keep the one that I think is best and still be beaten by a duck that grew up very well and who belongs to someone who really knows how to prepare a duck for the show room.

And if someone beats me with my own duck, I will be celebrating with them and bragging on them and be deliriously happy for them. If someone buys a show potential duck from me, I want them to have a very good time showing, and love the breed, and become a dedicated long term breeder and help to preserve and improve that breed. People don't stick with it if they never win, so I try my best to sell potential winners.

If a duck has a problem that makes it less than breeding quality, then it goes into the freezer. And to me, breeding quality is even higher quality than show quality. It must be excellent in areas that don't show up on the show bench.

 

[prov31gal]

Quote:
Is this kind of hatchery experience common? I ask because although I've only ordered from hatcheries a handful of times, I've never had a DOA or lost a chick. I've never considered myself a lucky person but if I'm beating those odds I think I'll start playing the lottery!

oh my gosh! thats just not true at all. ive been ordering for years now, and ive NEVER had an experience like that. neither has anyone i know. sure a bad shipments can sometimes happen, bad weather, post office mix-up. thats life, but you just cant go around saying all hatcheries are like that, its not true or fair. even the really bad hatcheries have better results.

 

[prov31gal]

Quote:
75% actually on average.

Might have been misleading the way it was wrote.

Uusually 50% doa or dying and 50% of the remaining ones over the next few days.

Big difference is this is all bantams ( I own no large fowl and never will), they dont ship nearly as well as large fowl chicks, and all seemed very tiny and weak as individuals also...gave them 4 chances, same result every time though. By the way, all that grew up, were either 100% off in color, type, or even breed in a few cases.

Did do great from Mc Murray once, but they did get here in about a day and a half from ship time.

A lot has to do with shipping duration, the rest is the over all vigor of the chicks being shipped too though. Time isnt a hatchery issue, but the vigor of what is being shipped is.

They shouldnt send out scrawny half sized chicks... and count them as part of your order, they just dont make it.

Only reason I was trying hatchery orders was for new d'anver and phoenix color projects. So quality wasnt an issue, they'd be made into mutts anyway then worked back into the breed of choice. Sad thing is I tried this for 4 season and have nothing to show for it but that 4 pound orange old english "bantam" roo...LOL

Live and learn. I just buy started birds from breeders now and work the colors in that way.

well, ive ordered bantes of many different kinds, and still NEVER had a turn out like that, EVER. maybe its something YOU re doing.

 

[ChickieBooBoo]

Quote:
Is this kind of hatchery experience common? I ask because although I've only ordered from hatcheries a handful of times, I've never had a DOA or lost a chick. I've never considered myself a lucky person but if I'm beating those odds I think I'll start playing the lottery!

oh my gosh! thats just not true at all. ive been ordering for years now, and ive NEVER had an experience like that. neither has anyone i know. sure a bad shipments can sometimes happen, bad weather, post office mix-up. thats life, but you just cant go around saying all hatcheries are like that, its not true or fair. even the really bad hatcheries have better results.

I've never had results like that either, from ANY hatchery.

 

[Boggy Bottom Bantams]

Quote:
75% actually on average.

Might have been misleading the way it was wrote.

Uusually 50% doa or dying and 50% of the remaining ones over the next few days.

Big difference is this is all bantams ( I own no large fowl and never will), they dont ship nearly as well as large fowl chicks, and all seemed very tiny and weak as individuals also...gave them 4 chances, same result every time though. By the way, all that grew up, were either 100% off in color, type, or even breed in a few cases.

Did do great from Mc Murray once, but they did get here in about a day and a half from ship time.

A lot has to do with shipping duration, the rest is the over all vigor of the chicks being shipped too though. Time isnt a hatchery issue, but the vigor of what is being shipped is.

They shouldnt send out scrawny half sized chicks... and count them as part of your order, they just dont make it.

Only reason I was trying hatchery orders was for new d'anver and phoenix color projects. So quality wasnt an issue, they'd be made into mutts anyway then worked back into the breed of choice. Sad thing is I tried this for 4 season and have nothing to show for it but that 4 pound orange old english "bantam" roo...LOL

Live and learn. I just buy started birds from breeders now and work the colors in that way.

well, ive ordered bantes of many different kinds, and still NEVER had a turn out like that, EVER. maybe its something YOU re doing.

haha

That's funny, I'M doing it. You must not know me I guess. I have been a breeder for 27+ years in everything from bantams, to ornamental and endangered waterfowl and pheasants and various other game birds. Even supplied for the Bronx Zoo for a while in the early 90's. So pretty much, I assure you, IT AINT ME couldnt kill half of them before the got here any way, LOL. I have forgotten more about birds than most all hatchery workers will ever know though.

Furthermore, read all the post. I go on to say, time in shipping is part of the problem as well. BUT the frail chicks are hatchery issues. Pretty much if you want to get down to it, all the major issues on mine have come from Ideal and their bantams(so the bulk of my bad luck has been with them) but have had very poor shipments from all the major hatcheries out there over the years. Not ALL hatcheries, and no not every shipment for every individual have major issues. But dont tell me my experiences with them ARENT TRUE . Were you here??

Where I do fully agree, weather, handling, and time in shipping are responsible for a a lot of this, my major case of complaint was I think 4 maybe 5 shipments over 3 years I believe, all from one hatchery all with little to no birds surviving more than a week , most DOA. That's not luck, or bad PO problems, that's just weak chicks being sent out to customers. Where you quoted me the first time, where it says, I have never had a good experience, you need to go back to the original post on page 1 and read the FULL thought process. There are 2 paragraphs there about that, not just one sentence talking about survival rate also. I dont consider a bird surviving and not being anywhere close to what I ordered breed or color wise to be a good result either. So that topic has been a little obscured from the quoting, needs to be read in it's entirety to fully understand what I was saying there.

But No, many people do get chicks in just fine, but YES many dont, as I mentioned a few post back, dont believe me, all you have to do is search the topic on here, there are thread after thread and post after post saying the exact same thing I have said regarding hatchery shipments. We could go back and forth for ever with the I had a good shipment, well I had a bad shipment style posting. Just stating what my over all average for bantams shipments has been.
On the other hand, I virtually never loose a chick in any I send out. One reason, much better stock, another, and a point I mentioned regarding hatcheries, I ONLY ship express mail. That time in transit makes all the difference, but so does the stocks strength to start with.

Now I have ordered some turkeys from hatcheries before and had excellent results....found out why too... they were drop shipped from the actual breeder, that hatchery didnt even own them to start with, just takes orders. Now a days, virtually 75% of them do this to an extent with some of what they sell, some are only online order takers and dont even own a single bird.

 

[seminolewind]

Twice I've ordered from MPC, I just wanted hens for sure. I am very happy with what I got. My firsts were JG's , 3, now all four years old, and they have laid alot of eggs.

I just got an order of 12, for me and a friend, from MPC, and I couldn't be happier with the sweet chicks. The 3 times I ordered eggs from Ebay, I did not do well, poor hatches and not hatching what I paid for, and disfigured chicks.

The only breeder I bought one pullet from (the ONLY purchase I made outside of hatching eggs here, or the few from a hatchery, ended up infecting my whole flock with Marek's, then died.

2 of my friends got chicks from a breeder that ended up dying of Marek's and taking some of their flocks with them--their breeding flock.

I think you're going to find good and bad in every seller.
And how many people buy chicks when it is too cold or too hot, only to find some dead ones arrive?

I agree with Orange Ribbon- it's a chicken either way!