a converstion with a show breeder.

[chickendales]

i have 15 breeding pens i feed all winter long with 1 to 5 birds in them it not that bad i live michigan and my barn is not heated

 

[mibirder]

I think one of the most critical issues is to have a good, well thought out, written plan with clearly defined goals as a starting point. Things to include would be breed(s), varieties, a breeding plan, hatching plan, and grow out plan. Also all of the environmental factors: How much space does the breed require, what will you do about weather conditions, what is you feed and sourcing, how "much" can you realistic do, what can you afford, what will you do with culls, will you use broodies or incubators, or both.etc.

Many have these ideas bouncing around in our heads, but writing them down helps to flush out the details. For example, you mentioned that you intend to show cockerels and pullets. In that case, adequate grow out pens are as important as breeding pens. For some breeds you may need to grow out young stock for many months before final culling. In addition, if you are starting out to building your own lines or lack top of the Standard stock, you may need to hatch fairly large numbers to gain adequate progress and showable birds. If the variety/breed stock available is of limited quality and/or "experimental" then the numbers increase accordingly.

Consider the following: with four breeding pens consisting of a trio each (2 hens, 1 roo) you would be targeting up to 8 eggs per pen per week during breeding. If you bred for one month that could be upwards of 144 eggs to hatch. If you were to reach 75% hatchability that's 108 chicks to grow out and to cull. At 2-4 square feet per chick, that's easily 200-400 squre feet of grow out pens initially - increasing in size as the birds grow (depending upon breed). That space is addition to the breeding pens and the adult pens for the birds when not breeding.

If you had 10% of the chicks grow out to be showable, that's nearly 100 growing birds to feed and cull - That's a pretty good size freezer! Assuming you'd replace 50% of the pullets yearly, then that's another 4 adults to cull plus the remain 6 showable stock not needed.

All this number crunching isn't to discourage you. Developing quality show stock is an admirable, necessary, and important task in chicken breeding. We need to have not only the backyard flocks, but we also need to have dedicated and committed show quality breeders too. To be successful at either it does take dedicate and commitment within what you are realistic willing and able to do in order to meet your goals.

Dave

 

[minister man]

Thanks for all the help, and the number crunching Dave. It doesn't discourage me, That is what I am looking for honest answers from people who are in the trenches.

It really isn't that I want to play a number game but I need to be prepared for things that will happen as I am going along. I will be showing white silkies, I bought 5 from a show breeder that is an APA judge. He is the guy that usally wins around here. There aren't many silkies around here. I joined the Silkie bantam club, and made some contacts there that I might be able to get some eggs from in the spring. So the birds I bought, are suppose to be pretty good.

The guy I got the birds from, says he pays no attention at all to relationship of mates, and the breeding is 100% about selection. Because that didn't add up with some of the advice I got on here, I asked a second breeder that is also a judge, but doesn't breed silkies, and it is his ideas that I am asking about here, but he too, says that I should pay no attention to relationship, but totally on slection. However he suggested that the pullets be test mated in single matings the first year to make sure they make more birds like themselves.

I know the answer to some of the things you told me to write out Dave.

Because I have to stay small, and want to do well, I will only be working with the white Varitiey of silkies as far as showing. I have more notes about breeding plans than I have good scence, but can't really decide, because no matter what plan I decide on thier is always someone out there to say that plan doesn't work, don't worry about relationship, just breed. I asked the Judge I bought my birds form and he told me that 4 square feet/ bird on 4" of shavings was lots of room for silkies. He told me the ones that I intend to show, need to stay inside at all times so they don't rust. I am planning to use the females that don't get into the breeding pens as broodies to hatch the chicks. I really don't have a desgin for grow out pens, but once my horses go to pasture i can use thier stalls. (If the birds don't need them before that)

I don't know what you mean about adult pens when they are not breeding. Would I not just leave them in thier breeding pens? That is about all I know at this point, the rest I will have to think about.


In your example of the 4 breeding pens, that is alot of birds. However, I am wondering if trio's make big enough breeding pens to keep up diversity, but then maybe that isn't important if show guys don't worry about realtionship. could I safely make your example my breeding plan? or is that thinking too small?



Thanks for the help, you are giving me lot to think about. I will try to sit down a little later and work on writting out that plan. One thing I know that i am tired of is after the birds hatch, scambling around to see where i can put them. So your way is Probably better.

 

[chickendales]

Quote:
the only problems with his #s was we all know silkies dont always lay well

 

[chickendales]

I don't know what you mean about adult pens when they are not breeding. Would I not just leave them in thier breeding pens? That is about all I know at this point, the rest I will have to think about.
a lot breeder put them in smaller breeding pens for the breeding season then let them out in to bigger pens the rest of the season

 

[minister man]

Ok, so Now I have some other questions for "the Plan"


The judge recommended that I prepare for a small agricultural fair show in August, So how old do silkies need to be when they are ready to show? I mean when would I need to hatch them?


I am pretty sure that silkies are late bloomers, so when are they finished growing enough to do the final culling?

I know That I need to start culling when they start hatching, and any with more or less than 5 toes, or that doesn't have black skin is not worth raising. What else would I cull for early?

I am thinking that grow out pens would need to be different sizes, right? Chicks don't need much room the first 4 weeks or so, then they need more as they go. I know it they are hard to sex young, but when they can be sexed, would one need to have cockeral pens and pullet pens? becasue they don't fly much, then I am thinking that brooding pens can be stacked up some, to make a smaller foot print.


I am thinking 4x 4 or 5 would be be big enough for breeding pens, I could put one above the other, or put them up high on the wall and put grow out pens below them. If the breeder birds can be combined together after breeding then the breeding pens could be used for small chicks could they not?


So many questions, and things I haven't thought of yet.

 

[mibirder]

Adult pens, as Chickendale pointed out, are pens where adults can be held for a variety of reasons. For example, in order to show condition females, you'll need some place for them and some place for the males (who generally have just a few things on their "minds"). Additionally, if the hens are the type that drop a bunch of back feathers at one time during molting, they'll need some place to wait out feather growing. These pens can also be useful in sorting groups of birds into cull pens vs keeper pens for the teenage birds. Even with birds for the freezer, there always seem to be a few that I think if I wait just a little longer, they'll come around!

Ideally, there is a "magic" number of birds that make for a balanced social structure - I'm not sure that three or four is that ideal number. That order can get disrupted with each rooster rotation to some extent, especially if the dominant bird is one of the hens rather than the rooster. Add to that the yearly rotation of one of the hens and there might be a fair amount of social structure upheaval in the birds. That stress can further complicate low egg laying issues. In separating the hens for breeding, if the hens are isolated for short enough periods, it easier to reintegrate them into a larger flock with less disruption to the pecking order. There is something to be said for the "psychology" of socially balanced flocks.

Also, over winter birds it is better to have an adequate number to provide "body heat" and comfort when it gets cold (of course, Silkies aren't much for cold climates without adequate protection anyway).

In MM's case, the adult pens could also double as his broody pens as it can get pretty ugly with hens on nests and hens with chicks. With the 3x4 breeding pens, there's not a lot of room for the replacements to find their place in the pecking order (even with just a few birds per pen). As you said, its better to "overbuild" a bit in the beginning and I've found I usually have more space issues when the birds are old enough to decide who are the keepers and who is ready to move on. I also have birds (nonwhites and "normal" feathered) that benefit from getting out into the sunshine, root away in the dirt, and feast on the unfortunate insects that fly into their pens.

I think it again comes down to the overall plan. If the goals require raising a large number of chicks to get the ones needed then longer periods of pen breeding likely would be the way to go - especially if the hens are all similiar genetically (with the same strengths and faults). If on the other hand there are multiple genetic lines (and different strengths and weakness) then a more controlled approach with breeding large numbers for very few select breeders would be better than raise large numbers from genetically diverse populations.

I think when pen breeding for type with a single genetic line it may "appear" that relationships are of a lesser selective importance, but in selecting the breeders, it often works out that many of them may be closely related. That's what provides the predictability and consistency in the breeding. ("Inbreeding" tends to concentrate the genetic characteristics while "Outbreeding" tends to dilute them. On the outher hand outbreeding often can improve qualities outside the Standard due to "hybrid vigor".)

Dave

 

[chickendales]

Quote:
birds would have be hatched 6 to 12 months before the show

 

[minister man]

So if I had a pen that was 4 feet by 16 feet that was my "winter housing Pen" where the females lived in the off season, and I built som partitions that were 4 feet long and 3 feet high. When breeding season comes, then I put the dividers in, that makes 4- 4x4 pens for breeding pen. Then I only need to have a place to keep the males and a place for conditioning and grow out pens. Am I on the right track?

 

[chickendales]

Quote:
i would do 2 by 4 or 2by 6 pens a 4by4 pen on top of each other mean u have clime in yes the breeding pens could be use as brooder
but i like my grow out area away from my breeders