I haven’t read the whole thread yet but I just want to say that recall is like any other command. You have to practice it in lots of different settings and distraction levels and really proof it. They aren’t just born knowing it or being “stubborn” or anything. It takes time and you have to train it just like you would train any other command. And it has to be done slowly.
Dogs don’t generalize well and just because they know something in one location does not mean they automatically know it elsewhere and are just choosing to be willfully disobedient. Sometimes that is the case, of course, but usually it’s just a matter of the dog needing more training and work with it.
If they listen inside or on a leash but not outside then don’t let them outside off leash yet. That just sets them up for failure and gives them the choice to not listen. You don’t want them to have that option at first.
There are lots of things you can do before letting them loose outside.
First of all you can start by moving to a bigger indoor space and working there; the bigger space may prove to be a new challenge/distraction for them.
If you don’t have a bigger space you can start distraction proofing and add in some low level distractions indoors first and build up gradually.
You can also try letting them in a confined space outdoors first such as a deck/porch, patio, garden, sun room, or something like that or get a little bit of fencing and make a little space in the yard and practice in a real small space like that first.
Somewhere where they can’t really get away and there aren’t really any distractions so they can’t fail. We don’t want failure. Giving them full run of a yard, especially a large yard, even a fenced in one, or taking them to an off leash area or park or whatever is setting them up for failure.
Start small. Build up distractions inside first and/or start in a small, boring area outside, depending on the space you have available.
Also, when you guys say they listen in a leash what exactly do you mean? Like a regular 6 foot leash or do you mean they listen even on the long training leashes?
Because my next suggestion was going to be to start them on a long line/training line until they have a reliable recall. They have all different sizes and lengths, anywhere from just 10 or 15 feet to 50 and 100 foot lines and everything in between like 20, 25, 30, and you can also use horse lunge lines too, so you can start with whatever size they listen well on and gradually build up. I like them because it gives them the sense of freedom without giving them too much freedom and it allows them to make a choice or at least let them think they are making a choice. They will eventually hit the end of the line and either come back or if they don’t, it’s very easy to just pick up the slack and start reeling them in, and help guide their choices. All the while rewarding for making the right choice.
Speaking of which, you should always always reward big when they come back! This doesn’t necessarily have to be food if you don’t believe in that. Toys and praise/patting work too. Although I personally think all dogs should start off with food even if you don’t use food anywhere else cause it sets them up for success from the beginning and starts them off right and wanting to listen. And it should be something super super yummy they only get when you are working on recall. That way, they will want to come running back every time. Something like hot dog or boiled chicken or cheese or something super delicious. But toys and praise/pats work too if the dog or you prefers but I still feel you gotta get super happy/excited, at least at first. And I personally am not opposed to continuing to reward for life. It’s an extremely important command. But obviously you don’t want to have to have a treat or toy every time so I do eventually wean off them but I just mean like even just intermittently still giving them one occasionally or having a variable reward schedule so they never know when they’ll get one and to keep up the incentive.
But the come command should also never be associated with negative, bad things. If you say come and they don’t listen the first few times so then you get really mad and yell at them when they finally do come back, why would they come back again? You’re mean and scary and that was no fun and frankly quite a horrible experience so next time they will be even harder to get back. Not saying either of you do this but this is just a hypothetical situation.
It should be happy and fun every time they come back. You want to make coming back to you the best thing that ever happened to them. Make yourself the greatest thing ever. Then they’ll want to come back every time. At least theoretically. It still takes time.
But anyway, back to not making it a negative thing, if they won’t come back every single time, then keep them on a leash or pen until they do and/or if you know they won’t listen, go and get them. That way, you’re not letting them fail and reinforcing bad habits (i.e. them not listening) that will be harder to train out later.
You should also never ever give a dog a command that you can’t enforce in one way or another. Whether that means keeping them on a leash or long line so you can reel them in when they don’t listen or physically going to get them when they don’t come back or giving them a treat or toy or whatever when they come back, you always want to be able to enforce it so they don’t have the option to do wrong. And say it once and only once and just wait for them to listen because otherwise you’re reinforcing bad habits.
This might be harder with dogs that already have bad habits established by other people such as rescues or older dogs or whatever but still possible.
And eventually they might not need the leash or the confinement or even the reward (though I think all dogs should be told they’re doing a good job one way or another. I wouldn’t want to work for no pay) but it’s always a good start until they get fully trained and reliable. Which can take a long time. For some dogs it’s a full year or two, others it’s lifetime. Actually, I would argue for most dogs training is or should be a lifelong process. Even if they’re trained quickly and/or know all their commands, most dogs still need refreshers throughout their life. You’re never really done training. At least IMO.
And especially with older dogs or rescues, a lot of the training time is spent undoing other people’s training. It’s harder starting out with a dog that already has bad habits as opposed to a puppy who you can start right from the beginning but it is possible and it’s also not the dog’s fault. Just means it will take more time, effort, and training.
Sorry this got so long. Was not at all intending it to be.
Dogs don’t generalize well and just because they know something in one location does not mean they automatically know it elsewhere and are just choosing to be willfully disobedient. Sometimes that is the case, of course, but usually it’s just a matter of the dog needing more training and work with it.
If they listen inside or on a leash but not outside then don’t let them outside off leash yet. That just sets them up for failure and gives them the choice to not listen. You don’t want them to have that option at first.
There are lots of things you can do before letting them loose outside.
First of all you can start by moving to a bigger indoor space and working there; the bigger space may prove to be a new challenge/distraction for them.
If you don’t have a bigger space you can start distraction proofing and add in some low level distractions indoors first and build up gradually.
You can also try letting them in a confined space outdoors first such as a deck/porch, patio, garden, sun room, or something like that or get a little bit of fencing and make a little space in the yard and practice in a real small space like that first.
Somewhere where they can’t really get away and there aren’t really any distractions so they can’t fail. We don’t want failure. Giving them full run of a yard, especially a large yard, even a fenced in one, or taking them to an off leash area or park or whatever is setting them up for failure.
Start small. Build up distractions inside first and/or start in a small, boring area outside, depending on the space you have available.
Also, when you guys say they listen in a leash what exactly do you mean? Like a regular 6 foot leash or do you mean they listen even on the long training leashes?
Because my next suggestion was going to be to start them on a long line/training line until they have a reliable recall. They have all different sizes and lengths, anywhere from just 10 or 15 feet to 50 and 100 foot lines and everything in between like 20, 25, 30, and you can also use horse lunge lines too, so you can start with whatever size they listen well on and gradually build up. I like them because it gives them the sense of freedom without giving them too much freedom and it allows them to make a choice or at least let them think they are making a choice. They will eventually hit the end of the line and either come back or if they don’t, it’s very easy to just pick up the slack and start reeling them in, and help guide their choices. All the while rewarding for making the right choice.
Speaking of which, you should always always reward big when they come back! This doesn’t necessarily have to be food if you don’t believe in that. Toys and praise/patting work too. Although I personally think all dogs should start off with food even if you don’t use food anywhere else cause it sets them up for success from the beginning and starts them off right and wanting to listen. And it should be something super super yummy they only get when you are working on recall. That way, they will want to come running back every time. Something like hot dog or boiled chicken or cheese or something super delicious. But toys and praise/pats work too if the dog or you prefers but I still feel you gotta get super happy/excited, at least at first. And I personally am not opposed to continuing to reward for life. It’s an extremely important command. But obviously you don’t want to have to have a treat or toy every time so I do eventually wean off them but I just mean like even just intermittently still giving them one occasionally or having a variable reward schedule so they never know when they’ll get one and to keep up the incentive.
But the come command should also never be associated with negative, bad things. If you say come and they don’t listen the first few times so then you get really mad and yell at them when they finally do come back, why would they come back again? You’re mean and scary and that was no fun and frankly quite a horrible experience so next time they will be even harder to get back. Not saying either of you do this but this is just a hypothetical situation.
It should be happy and fun every time they come back. You want to make coming back to you the best thing that ever happened to them. Make yourself the greatest thing ever. Then they’ll want to come back every time. At least theoretically. It still takes time.
But anyway, back to not making it a negative thing, if they won’t come back every single time, then keep them on a leash or pen until they do and/or if you know they won’t listen, go and get them. That way, you’re not letting them fail and reinforcing bad habits (i.e. them not listening) that will be harder to train out later.
You should also never ever give a dog a command that you can’t enforce in one way or another. Whether that means keeping them on a leash or long line so you can reel them in when they don’t listen or physically going to get them when they don’t come back or giving them a treat or toy or whatever when they come back, you always want to be able to enforce it so they don’t have the option to do wrong. And say it once and only once and just wait for them to listen because otherwise you’re reinforcing bad habits.
This might be harder with dogs that already have bad habits established by other people such as rescues or older dogs or whatever but still possible.
And eventually they might not need the leash or the confinement or even the reward (though I think all dogs should be told they’re doing a good job one way or another. I wouldn’t want to work for no pay) but it’s always a good start until they get fully trained and reliable. Which can take a long time. For some dogs it’s a full year or two, others it’s lifetime. Actually, I would argue for most dogs training is or should be a lifelong process. Even if they’re trained quickly and/or know all their commands, most dogs still need refreshers throughout their life. You’re never really done training. At least IMO.
And especially with older dogs or rescues, a lot of the training time is spent undoing other people’s training. It’s harder starting out with a dog that already has bad habits as opposed to a puppy who you can start right from the beginning but it is possible and it’s also not the dog’s fault. Just means it will take more time, effort, and training.
Sorry this got so long. Was not at all intending it to be.
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