A Heritage of Perfection: Standard-bred Large Fowl

[neopolitancrazy]

I think the thread petered off a bit because we need more lurkers to start asking questions and trying to work with standard-bred birds.  When folk's are ready, we are

 

Well, I am trying to learn to work with standard-bred birds, and I have a 3 questions

My birds are Dorkings, a pair (with perfect feet/toes) from Urch, and 2 pullets from McMurray. The McM pullets included one with a partially fused 4th and 5th toe, but she was bigger than the others with perfect toes, so I kept her. In this spring's chicks, I am seeing all sorts of 4th and 5th toe configurations, including duckfoot and 2 that had only 4 toes on one foot. These variations are occurring in equal frequency among the pure Urch chicks and those with possibly a McM dam. The Urch cock is the only possible sire.

My understanding is that the 5th toe is an autosomal dominant trait with variable penetrance, is this correct?

Also, I have been culling all chicks with 4 toes, duckfoot, and fused toes, saving only those with 5 distinct, separate toes. I assume this is a good, conservative approach, is it?

What if I have an otherwise superior chick with a 5th toe that points down instead of up? At this stage, I am defining "superior" as heavier than its hatchmates, since the chicks mechanically incubated, hatched in January and raised in a brooder have experienced very different growing conditions from those hen incubated/hatched in late May/raised by broody hen.

I appreciate all feedback.
Thanks,
Angela

 

[Yellow House Farm]

Well, I am trying to learn to work with standard-bred birds, and I have a 3 questions

My birds are Dorkings, a pair (with perfect feet/toes) from Urch, and 2 pullets from McMurray. The McM pullets included one with a partially fused 4th and 5th toe, but she was bigger than the others with perfect toes, so I kept her. In this spring's chicks, I am seeing all sorts of 4th and 5th toe configurations, including duckfoot and 2 that had only 4 toes on one foot. These variations are occurring in equal frequency among the pure Urch chicks and those with possibly a McM dam. The Urch cock is the only possible sire.

My understanding is that the 5th toe is an autosomal dominant trait with variable penetrance, is this correct?

Also, I have been culling all chicks with 4 toes, duckfoot, and fused toes, saving only those with 5 distinct, separate toes. I assume this is a good, conservative approach, is it?

What if I have an otherwise superior chick with a 5th toe that points down instead of up? At this stage, I am defining "superior" as heavier than its hatchmates, since the chicks mechanically incubated, hatched in January and raised in a brooder have experienced very different growing conditions from those hen incubated/hatched in late May/raised by broody hen.

I appreciate all feedback.
Thanks,
Angela

Greetings Angela!

Yes. Yes, and It depends.

My experience with polydactyly, i.e. the fifth toe, is that is is variable. It is, indeed, dominant; so consistent selection for it will keep it the most prevalent trait, but four-toed birds will pop up on occasion.

Cull what you don't want to breed into your line. Now, I probably would have made the same call concerning the one with fused toes with superior size and being able to pair her with a cock with well divided toes will help to offset. Now, in an ideal universe you can hatch many chicks so that you have room to cull away from these traits right from the start.

Now for toes, and this is just my modus operandi, I have a bare minimum qualification for what I expect at this point in the game, but weight and type are more important to me. The same thing goes for comb. I have a bare minimum requirement, but after that, I am more interested in weight and type.

The reality, though, is that I don't want "either/or" I want "both/and". Therefore I hatch in number to have the greatest possible chance to get that combo. Once I get it, I can work on getting it in a homogenous state, which will help make the flock prepotent for the trait.

So, toes-wise, on your last question, if you keep that bird, you are letting the toe issue become stronger in your flock, which means you are going to spend more years culling more to rid your flock of it. So, I guess the question would be, is it worth it? If you have a bird with significantly better type or that is significantly weightier, or if it's a hen that is totally free from shafting, then it is probably worth it. If you it's only marginally superior then I wouldn't want to deal the subsequent years of selection to get it out.

Just my immediate thoughts.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

I've been quiet lately because a series of dog attacks has wiped out most of my flock. I don't have much left to ask questions about. Working on security issues before I consider restocking with anything valuable. The buggers keep finding creative new ways to break in. So far I haven't managed to catch or shoot them. Don't want to start a ruckus about dogs. Just wanted folks to know why I've been lurking lately instead of asking questions.

All I have left is a few mediocre birds I had been keeping for layers and meat. This is a powerful example of the lesson I had previously failed to learn: Only keep birds you would be willing to use as breeders. Because you never know what is going to happen to your actual breeders. I was planning to improve the quality of the layer flock over time. Fate did not give me enough time for that plan to work. Live and learn. And move to Plan C.

Sarah

Ah, that sucks, predators are frustrating, domestic or otherwise.

Is there a way to look at this as a positive? With the possibility for beginning clean slate, is there something you would change? The breed? The variety? It sounds like you have already realized a powerful understanding. This can alter your practice and improve your future results in an important manner.

To that point, I would say, "Yes." Why waste infrastructure on inferior stock? Part of becoming a true breeder, is becoming a master of something, and becoming a master of anything is rooted in discipline. I know that a person is not yet ready to take the plunge, when the excuses come up about, "Well, they're just for layers," or "My kids really like them," or "I'm going to use them for broodies," or "I just want to have a mixed laying flock," or "I can't cull them now, I'm going to use them for meat," or "people at the swaps like them". All these things come up, but what a breeder sees is wasted infrastructure, feed, and effort that consequently reduce the space and resources available to tackle a more effective program.

Our base system, is a house, with and attached, covered run that will keep out predators with a range run or, perhaps run-less free-range available. This way I can choose whether or not they get to "free-range" depending on what predator pressure there is. Our consistently worst period is late October through December during hawk migration. We have Goshawks that fly through and think nothing of jumping into uncovered runs and aren't deterred by anything. The covered run isn't as nice as free-range, but it gets them out of the house and into 100% protection. During this time of rebuilding and reworking, it allows you to address this sort of issue.

Minks are what taught us. Twice I've contended with them, and they're horrible. Dozens of losses to a a time. I'm totally feeling for you.

 

[chooks4life]

Been reading through this thread, very interesting info. Definitely puts some things in perspective.

Best wishes.

 

[finnfur]

Minks are what taught us. Twice I've contended with them, and they're horrible. Dozens of losses to a a time.

Yes - aren't they cute little animals - when you make coats out of them.

 

[troyer]

To that point, I would say, "Yes." Why waste infrastructure on inferior stock? Part of becoming a true breeder, is becoming a master of something, and becoming a master of anything is rooted in discipline. I know that a person is not yet ready to take the plunge, when the excuses come up about, "Well, they're just for layers," or "My kids really like them," or "I'm going to use them for broodies," or "I just want to have a mixed laying flock," or "I can't cull them now, I'm going to use them for meat," or "people at the swaps like them". All these things come up, but what a breeder sees is wasted infrastructure, feed, and effort that consequently reduce the space and resources available to tackle a more effective program.

100% in agreement.

 

[RiddleMe]

They're definitely too young for serious assessment.  You'd want to wait until they were a solid six months old, especially as you're learning the breed.

Is this more due to the specific breed in general (maybe slow to develop) or because the breeder is just learning? I guess my real question is when a person is just learning a breed, should one disregard any concern wrt culling extra cockerels "before the crow", unless they have obvious DQs, and just plan to grow them out a bit longer, until a better feel for the breeds development is attained? Note, my question is more focused on the cockerels vs pullets, As it seems pullets are easier to keep longer and cull later due to the ability to sell them as layers. But I'd be curious about the answer for both.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

Is this more due to the specific breed in general (maybe slow to develop) or because the breeder is just learning? I guess my real question is when a person is just learning a breed, should one disregard any concern wrt culling extra cockerels "before the crow", unless they have obvious DQs, and just plan to grow them out a bit longer, until a better feel for the breeds development is attained? Note, my question is more focused on the cockerels vs pullets, As it seems pullets are easier to keep longer and cull later due to the ability to sell them as layers. But I'd be curious about the answer for both.

A bit of both. Finalists--not meaning your absolute winners and/or definite breeders but those whom one expects are worth holding onto for further scrutiny are often not truly visible until about the six month mark. However, the longer one breeds a breed--and, really, their particular STRAIN of that breed--the more one will become familiar with the predictable growth patterns of the stock. At that point, although the truly fine points might yet be hard to see, the glaring faults become easier and easier to pick out. After raising a strain for a while, one begins to have a feel for what one can expect, and one starts to recognize the signs of progress a bit earlier on. Nevertheless, one still errs on the side of possibility when in doubt.

Now, when one is beginning with birds, it is often recommended to just raise them out. It takes raising birds from a specific strain out to 6 months and more to really start to get a feel for their strengths and weaknesses.

On crowing, it's just part of the game. We have some 200 crowers on campus right now, and we never know they're there. My friend would call it "the law of allowing."

Best,

Joseph

 

[RiddleMe]

Is this more due to the specific breed in general (maybe slow to develop) or because the breeder is just learning? I guess my real question is when a person is just learning a breed, should one disregard any concern wrt culling extra cockerels "before the crow", unless they have obvious DQs, and just plan to grow them out a bit longer, until a better feel for the breeds development is attained? Note, my question is more focused on the cockerels vs pullets, As it seems pullets are easier to keep longer and cull later due to the ability to sell them as layers. But I'd be curious about the answer for both.

A bit of both.  Finalists--not meaning your absolute winners and/or definite breeders but those whom one expects are worth holding onto for further scrutiny are often not truly visible until about the six month mark.  However, the longer one breeds a breed--and, really, their particular STRAIN of that breed--the more one will become familiar with the predictable growth patterns of the stock.  At that point, although the truly fine points might yet be hard to see, the glaring faults become  easier and easier to pick out.  After raising a strain for a while, one begins to have a feel for what one can expect, and one starts to recognize the signs of progress a bit earlier on.  Nevertheless, one still errs on the side of possibility when in doubt.

Now, when one is beginning with birds, it is often recommended to just raise them out.  It takes raising birds from a specific strain out to 6 months and more to really start to get a feel for their strengths and weaknesses.

On crowing, it's just part of the game.  We have some 200 crowers on campus right now, and we never know they're there.  My friend would call it "the law of allowing."

Best,

Joseph

Thanks Joseph, that was where my gut was leading me. Wrt the crow, it was more a quality of meat concern than actual noise; fortunately my location, acreage, and neighbors make the noise pretty much a non-issue. In the past I've tried to butcher ~4 months due to concerns wrt to tenderness, but being new to these two breeds I just didn't feel confident making decisions that early. Side question, what is it in the "allowing" that keeps that many crowers quiet, is it your housing, flock configurations, a combo of the two, or...?

 

[brahmabreeder]

I think the thread petered off a bit because we need more lurkers to start asking questions and trying to work with standard-bred birds. When folk's are ready, we are

Ok, I've got one for anyone who might know the answer to. Right now I've got this plan to really improve the buff brahmas( LF ). Not enough good stock out there as far as the buffs go, so I'm using my lights to improve the buffs. Right now I've already done the cross and got the F1's bred them to a pure buff male and have my current chicks, the F2's.

Here's where I'm at. The type in general looks to be improving nicely. The coloring is where I need help. When I'm picking out breeders for next year I plan on doing one pen more focused on females and one more focused on males. That will make three breeding pens for the buffs, with one being a pen with a buff male and two light females from this year( these should add some serious type to these buffs ). The coloring though is all over the place. Some have too little buff, some too much, and some that appear to be perfect at the moment. I know how to pick out the females for the Columbian color pattern. Male pen will get females with lots of smutting in their back to give nice saddle feather coloring/diamonding. The female pen will get more SQ coloring in their females. My problem is I just don't know how to pick out the males as far as the coloring goes. Should I pick males with more black, or ones that are close to SQ for the males? Should I pick out males with more buff, or SQ coloring for the females??

p.s. I know the buff males will have white feathers for x years, but the pattern will look the same.