A Heritage of Perfection: Standard-bred Large Fowl

[3riverschick]

"All the great ones look alike"

Such an important mantra. One could build
a whole breeding program on that sentence.
It is a two-fold statement. 1st, they all "look alike".
2nd they are "great". What profound majesty in
a few simple words. Lifetimes of achievement to
breed a creature which merits that statement
from the learned onlookers.
Why do they all look alike? Because their breeders understood the Standard and selected wisely , which "wisdom" directly impacts the second part of the statement.
What is "greatness"? Yes, it is majesty. A
"presence". Both as a result of the creator's art
and the science behind the creating. It is even
more than that. Greatness requires an
understanding of the nuances of the creature.
Why it evolved as it did and why that form endured.
What that extra "something" is which makes the
great ones stand out among their fellows.
We all know that the parts of a whole are
dependent on one another to provide a proper
functioning "whole" of whatever it is we are
viewing. We can breed all the correct parts of a
creature in one creature, according to the
Standard, and still not have a proper specimen.
It is proper but it is not "great". Why? Greatness
requires an understanding of the breeds' purpose.
Of the reasons behind why it came to be in the
first place and why the breeders chose to continue
its existence in a certain fashion. This is more
than "the whole is the sum of its parts" and
"Form follows function". It is much closer to
Frank Lloyd Wright's correction of his latter
quoted statement which reads, " Form follows
function - that has been misunderstood. Form
and function should be one, joined in a spiritual
union." What beauty and symmetry opined in that statement ! An understanding that whole is more
than its parts. It is the union between the parts
which creates greatness. A union forged by need.
Whose every nuance contributes to the fine harmony
of the whole. The integral beauty and symmetry
which shine forth from a "great" creature. It is not
laid down by the selections we make. It is a result
of the integral harmony of the whole. A symphony
we cannot hear unless we understand the nuances
of the breed. It is within those nuances, the
harmony of parts is made greater then their sum.
That the creature stands apart from its fellows
with that extra "something" we call greatness.
Try an exercise. The next poultry show you go to,
go with no expectations. No visual or emotional
or any expectations of the animals at all. Wander
thru the rows with an open mind, expecting nothing.
A bird will stop you in your tracks. You will gasp
and say," that bird is great, a real showstopper".
Now try and figure out just what it was about
that bird which entrapped you.
It works. I tried this suggestion once at the
1996 Collie National. Several rows thru the
contestants, this young sable smooth dog looked
up at me out of his exercise pen. He had me at Hello. There was an undefinable something about him. His symmetry and grace. The intuitiveness of his "being".
He was "more" than the sum of his exquisite parts.
I took a copy of his pedigree to mull over. I was
not familiar with his breeding. About 7 hours later ,
over an historic 1,000+ entry, he became the
1st smooth collie to won the National since the
1970's. It was an "ah ha" moment for me and
can be for you too.
One thing that will help is to study the history
and nuances of one's breed. It will help one
understand the nuances when seen. It is very
difficult to appreciate nuances and the important
role they play if one doesn't understand their purpose. Purpose lies in the history and origins of a breed.
Become a breed historian. Seek out all the little
things that made your breed great. Read the
founding fathers and legendary breeder's thoughts.
Sieve the thoughts of both and be able to throw
out the obsolete and error full. Even the old-time breeders made mistakes. Examine the results of
feeding, laying and other scientific trials. Read
about experiments that failed and why. Know the
major and minor breeding laws which apply to your breed. They are written in stone and will not change despite our enthusiasms. Look at the breeding and culling systems used by the great breeders in your
breed. If they explain them, even better!! Look for
commonalities between their systems. What did
they do to perpetuate excellence thru multiple generations? All these disparate pieces of information
will start to come together in a vision of the nuances behind the "whole". Which makes that "scared union" possible.All this ties into being able to select for proper
breed type. When you understand the "why" behind
the "sacred union", then you can select for birds
which will produce it.
Then "All the great ones look alike"
Best Regards,
Karen

 

[fowlman01]

Great job as usual Joseph. Barn blindness is something we all have and it is real. The people who don't believe that are fools. Dogs and dog shows have nothing in common with poultry. My wife has shown dog for about 30 years so I am familiar with both shows and both exhibitors
They are not alike. The APA will be going back to its roots and promoting the utility of the Standard bred birds.

Walt

 

[3riverschick]

Great job as usual Joseph. Barn blindness is something we all have and it is real. The people who don't believe that are fools. Dogs and dog shows have nothing in common with poultry. My wife has shown dog for about 30 years so I am familiar with both shows and both exhibitors
They are not alike. The APA will be going back to its roots and promoting the utility of the Standard bred birds.

Walt

I know they are not alike Walt. I wasn't trying to say they were. I was just using it as an example
of an exercise to appreciate virtue in a creature. Could have been cavies, or cows or? I come from
the dog world too and the genetics just don't translate to poultry. But basic ideas about how to learn
to appreciate virtue do. That's what I was saying. Regardless of the species, all the great ones look alike.
With deep respect,
Karen

 

[Serica]

Very useful information. Thank you for sharing it! 3Rivers, I totally got what you were trying to convey. YellowHouse, understand your points and take them to heart. Fowlman thank you for your point of view coming from two different show worlds.

At the end of the day, we'll keep striving for the best we can do. Try and do well by the breed and have a bird we can enjoy looking at and eating too. Every once in a while remembering the blinders and have folks remove them for us so we can continue on and improve.

 

[fowlman01]

I know they are not alike Walt. I wasn't trying to say they were. I was just using it as an example
of an exercise to appreciate virtue in a creature. Could have been cavies, or cows or? I come from
the dog world too and the genetics just don't translate to poultry. But basic ideas about how to learn
to appreciate virtue do. That's what I was saying. Regardless of the species, all the great ones look alike.
With deep respect,
Karen

I wasn't referring to your post...you already know the difference. I just want new people who believe they are the same or even close to know the truth. Everything posted here is read by many more people that don't post......just trying to keep it accurate and I have a good knowledge of how the dog shows and poultry hsow from firsthand experience. Every dog person that is new thinks all animal shows are the same........they are not. there are no names or faces attached to the birds in a poultry show and that alone makes a huge difference..

Walt

 

[3riverschick]

I wasn't referring to your post...you already know the difference. I just want new people who believe they are the same or even close to know the truth. Everything posted here is read by many more people that don't post......just trying to keep it accurate and I have a good knowledge of how the dog shows and poultry hsow from firsthand experience. Every dog person that is new thinks all animal shows are the same........they are not. there are no names or faces attached to the birds in a poultry show and that alone makes a huge difference..

Walt

Oh, ok, my misunderstanding, thank you. I must admit I was floored when I read that there is no viewing of the judging by competitors. No rail birding, no double handling ringside, no people period! Just the judges and clerks! First thing I thought of was, "Wouldn't that be great at dog shows.", smile. So every poultry show becomes a poultry symposium as the folk wait for the judging to be complete. No wonder the veterans keep telling the newcomers to go to shows. It isn't just the birds.
We went to a huge show last year. Everyone was so nice and friendly. Willing to share about their birds and how they did things. A whole different world. No one treated us as ignorant or looked down on us for being new to poultry.
Best Regards,
Karen

 

[Yellow House Farm]

Here is a thought-provoking quote:

"The early development of [the Rhode Island Red] was for utility purposes. Later it became a fancier's fowl as well. Too much emphasis on color, in some cases, has been at the expense of utilitarian qualities. Unfortunately, some of the production breeders of Rhode Island Reds have neglected color in their breeding stock to that state inspectors supervising breeding work under the National Poultry Improvement Plan are confronted with either rejecting flocks of this breeding or classifying them as some other breed. The goal of Rhode Island Red breeders should be high-producing birds which have definitely the type and color which distinguish this breed." (Winter and Funk. Poultry Science and Practice. pg. 31-2, 1949)

Right away, of course one notices the long lament: productivity being lost at the expense of color. However, the second statement gives substantial pause. The implication is that NPIP used to certify flocks according to breed. Moreover, that certification process was built on flock approximation to the APA's SOP. That is highly significant and illustrative of poultry culture in by-gone days. The implication, too, is that NPIP testers were breed knowledgeable enough to make basic judgments as to whether or not a flock was representative of the breed. Of course, now a days, NH testers--very nice lot--don't even know what breed they're looking at. This is not the point, though; the point is that APA SOP breed designation is here evidently understood to be essential to the essential worthiness of a flock.

The final statement is a gem. These poultry professors, speaking ex cathedra, posit: "The goal [...] should be high-producing birds which have definitely the type and color which distinguish [the] breed." So, in 1949, the reigning notion is that, as Karen expressed above via Frank Lloyd Wright, "Form and function should be one." Now, herewith I do not intend to open up the tired banter about industry should do such and such. Rather, it's excellent to read that the poultry specialists of the day believed that the two qualities belonged together in an APA-worthy specimen.

It also recognizes that, when we see hatchery stock that is anything but what it claims to be, our complaint about the sham would have been understood in the day when these breeds were still the industrial go-to's.

Neither do I wish to infer herewith that all breeders need to move production to the forefront of their programs. No matter what anyone posts on-line concerning their opinions about the "shoulds" of standard-bred poultry, it is, indeed, the SOP breeders who are responsible for the present existence of the vast majority of all lines of traditional poultry. I do think, though, that the most enduring breeds in the yet-to-be-seen future of poultry will be those that are either purely and truly naught but for beauty, i.e. bantams, etc., and those lines of large fowl that maintain form and function.

 

[gjensen]

Yellow House, I think it as simple as being mindful of the birds historic reputation, listed under "Economic Qualities". Staying in line with what made the breed popular in it's day. Avoiding either extreme. The truth is generally in the middle, though we tend to drift towards one extreme or the other.

Just implementing some simple steps and standards is all that is required. I raise New Hampshires, so I select for early growth rates. That is pretty easy to do and is keeping with the breed. I have put some emphasis on point of lay. Then I am mindful of who is laying and not along the way. I put preference on who goes into molt later, and finishes faster. Then I am looking at who is getting into full gear earliest in the spring. When it comes time to set eggs, I cull eggs for size and shape. When they hatch, I do not help and only give them a reasonable amount of time to hatch. These are things that are easy to do, along with selecting for good type and color.

With my NHs, I want 20 - 30 more eggs per year, and increase egg size. I also want to get them in the cooler 2 wks earlier than I can now. I think these are reasonable and achievable goals. I also think that this will make my flock an excellent all round flock. I do not care to see them get any better than that. I do not think they need any more than that.

Concerning egg laying, my experience is that the rate of lay is often not a problem. It is when they come into lay and length of lay. In lay 2 weeks earlier and molting one week later may mean another dozen eggs in the pullet year. Some times egg size is an issue, but it is not as if we do not see the size of the eggs we are putting in the incubator.

Something as simple a keeping a bird through it's first laying cycle before it is bred, can make a difference.

I believe the Standard does not spell all of this out for us, because it was written in a time where it was commonly understood. These simple steps were already part of keeping poultry by farmers that could not afford to do otherwise.

To sum it up, all I think we need to do is be mindful of these things along the way. Especially being mindful of what the breed is. I also realize that others may not see it the same way. To me a breed has a phenotype and genotype. They should look as they should and do as they should. Otherwise, to me, they are not what they are supposed to be.

I also do not think we should scrap what we have in favor of something else. Just like the rest, we should move forward from where we are. It is not rocket science, and it is not a race. Certain strains become known for certain strengths. They are not all the same, and that is a good thing.

To me, good breeding is first getting a feel for what a breed is. Why it has the type that it does, and select accordingly.

And no. I do not want poor looking birds. I want them to be sharp and to enjoy them. I want them to be a pleasure to look at and keep. One day, it would be nice for them to be recognized by others as well bred birds. I think we can do both, and have both. Just start where we are, and move forward.

Just my opinion.

 

[3riverschick]

Hi George,
Regarding increasing eggs per year. A while back I was researching grit for someone.
I get my grit from Gran-I-Grit in North Carolina. They have been making granite chicken
grit since 1935 from the world's largest open air granite quarry. Anyway, they have a flyer
about their chicken grit on their website. They make 3 sizes of grit. They state that by
giving the birds the proper size grit at the proper developmental time, you can increase egg
production by 20%. I thought that was really interesting.
There are 3 kinds. Starter(chick) , Grower ( teenager) and Developer(adult).
http://www.ncgranite.com/crushed-stone-surry-county/cut-stone-mt-airy-nc/gran-i-grit-products.html
What Do I Need to Know About Grit?
(specifically about Gran-I-Grit.)
http://www.countrysideorganics.com/product-faqs/product-facts/
Gran-I Grit flyer :
http://www.ncgranite.com/images/gritmailer.pdf

I am just mentioning this grit info because I had no idea, grit was so important to meat
and egg production. Making the most of a bird's genetic potential. People converse all the
time about their birds just pick up pebbles, or dirt by the side of the road, or some sand
here and there. I had no idea correct grit feeding could make such a difference in flock
production. Had a tough time finding out which sizes to feed when. I finally got info off
a guy who was selling Gran-I-Grit and posted it on this BYC review:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/products/gran-i-grit-insoluable-crushed-granite
I didn't know that for best effect the chicks would change to 3 different types of grit
in their 1st 7 weeks. I sure will be more diligent with grit feeding this year!
Best,
Karen

 

[MagicChicken]

Hi George,
Regarding increasing eggs per year. A while back I was researching grit for someone.
I get my grit from Gran-I-Grit in North Carolina. They have been making granite chicken
grit since 1935 from the world's largest open air granite quarry. Anyway, they have a flyer
about their chicken grit on their website. They make 3 sizes of grit. They state that by
giving the birds the proper size grit at the proper developmental time, you can increase egg
production by 20%. I thought that was really interesting.
There are 3 kinds. Starter(chick) , Grower ( teenager) and Developer(adult).
http://www.ncgranite.com/crushed-stone-surry-county/cut-stone-mt-airy-nc/gran-i-grit-products.html
What Do I Need to Know About Grit?
(specifically about Gran-I-Grit.)
http://www.countrysideorganics.com/product-faqs/product-facts/
Gran-I Grit flyer :
http://www.ncgranite.com/images/gritmailer.pdf

I am just mentioning this grit info because I had no idea, grit was so important to meat
and egg production. Making the most of a bird's genetic potential. People converse all the
time about their birds just pick up pebbles, or dirt by the side of the road, or some sand
here and there. I had no idea correct grit feeding could make such a difference in flock
production. Had a tough time finding out which sizes to feed when. I finally got info off
a guy who was selling Gran-I-Grit and posted it on this BYC review:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/products/gran-i-grit-insoluable-crushed-granite
I didn't know that for best effect the chicks would change to 3 different types of grit
in their 1st 7 weeks. I sure will be more diligent with grit feeding this year!
Best,
Karen

My yard is nothing but grit. The 20% improvement claim seems questionable. If they had said "up to 20% improvement in production" I'd be more inclined to believe them. Everyone's conditions are different. In my case, my yard is nothing but grit of varying sizes and I keep a bowl of yard grit in the brooder from the time the chicks are a day or two old. Not much point in buying the stuff. Purchased grit can be helpful in some cases - particularly when birds are indoors with no access to natural grit. Not so helpful in cases like mine.