A Heritage of Perfection: Standard-bred Large Fowl

[chickadoodles]

Quote: x2 Wisher you are going to pick up some more birds and you will them them going! Hang in there.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

I think sharing them with others that have a good sense of what the breed is, helps. Along the lines of Joseph's suggestions to get them to shows, and have them judged by the judge and your peers. The variety of eyes, with the variety of perspectives could be helpful.

Indeed, this goes along with "no man is an island." I cannot think of a reason to try a breeding project without the support of judges and mentors. The more you speak with them, the more you realize that poultry breeding is one long line of passing the torch. To talk to true breeders is to talk with all the breeders they have talked with through a long line of history.

I have to fight, everyday, to stay focused on type. I think it is because, with these birds, the color/pattern is flashy and draws attention to itself. My first thoughts are about color.

I must redirect my focus onto the type. "That one has a fuller breast, that one has a better tail angle, that ones legs are straighter or set wider. That one has a wider head".

I may just need to swallow my pride and take what I have, to get the help I can't get locally.

It is very tough, but this is another reason to go to shows and to volunteer to clerk as much as possible. Be part of the set-up and tear down--that's when everyone talks. I have distinct issues with the expression, "Build the barn and then paint it," because it is highly misunderstood by beginners and is quoted around here like everybody knows what it means. It is far too black and white sounding. It is not one and then the other; they are both happening simultaneously. However, the amount of emphasis placed on a certain criterion differs. Shape is, nonetheless, of the utmost importance. WIsher1000, in your particular circumstance, you are trying to open up their skeletal structure. You are looking for a combined miracle, you need a flat(ter) back and birds that are not (or less) tucked up. Those two things are what you need before anything else. You need the back to flatten, and you need the keel bone to come down out of the pelvic bones.


On the pride point, I'm going to take the liberty of being very frank. Please don't mix feelings into these birds. They are in too much need for you to take it personally if they fail, and that need was not created by you; it's not a reflection of you. If they don't succeed, you need to keep learning about breeding chickens and having fun. Still, take them to shows because that's where you're going to get the ideas. Just own it. Tell people about what you're trying. At first folks will be surprised by how tight they are, and some might think it's useless to try; others might give support. If you know that going into it, you're cool because you're not surprised by their being surprised.

Here is the pic I was talking about.


She is only about 10 weeks old.

In keeping with fairness to the bird, 10 weeks is way too soon, especially when it's your first season growing them. A lot can change as the growing bird expands. Now, having said that, as George said, feel all of them. You are battling roach back, and there are only so many ways to get rid of that. IF there's still enough variability in the gene pool to hatch chicks without it, than you can cull like a crazy woman. If by experience you ascertain that you can cull for roach back by a certain age, that allows you to cull at that age. Doing so liberates you infrastructure to house more birds. This project--to be successful--might necessitate you hatching-growing-culling, hatching-growing-culling until you obtain a certain capital of flat backed birds that aren't tucked up. That goal alone IS going to take hundreds and hundreds of chicks from these birds; the earlier you can cull, the more efficient the process.

Do your birds produce any that do not have it?

That's the big hope,namely, that they have enough potential for variance in the trait to tease out some without it.

They are delightful birds. I especially like the Golden Campines. I like that white earlobe's contrast with the orange.

There's a lot to be said here. Fortune has shone more pity on the Goldens--not a lot more, but more. What you need more than anything else is the very best Golden Campine pullets you can obtain. This IS the key to fixing these--outcrossing to Golden Campine FEMALES. It will turn it around in a number of generations.

This does, however, raise a point and something worthy of consideration. Are you heading in the wrong direction? Color really, really, really is only skin deep. The Golden variety is the dominant variety, and that's not a bad thing. It may be the only variety that makes it to 2030--or even 2020. That is of no importance, though. The Silvers are always sitting just underneath. This statement only sounds strange until one understands the basics of color genetics, but once one does, one understands that color really, really, really is only skin deep. What is needful for Campines is that the Campine breed, which means the Campine shape, or type, survive and even flourish. I am of the rather firm opinion that that will only happen if all of the relatively few Campine breeders cooperate in their intentions. The best case scenario would be for all of the breeders to be working with the same variety, and currently the worthier variety is the Golden.

When there is more than one variety (paint job) in a breed (the barn), the temptation is to become color (paint) focused. In the end, when all the squabbling and dust clears, there is actually no barn left; everyone's been so busy digging in their heals behind a certain color that no one has built a barn at all. Without inter-breeder cooperation, there can be no barn. Instead, we're left with a string of painted sheds.

If you find that you are tempted to raise the Goldens, there is no pride to swallow. Just go for it because to raise the Goldens is to raise the Silvers. I guess it's pretty clear that I would point you in that direction. That doesn't mean that you should do so, though. However, if you're going to work on the Silver, you MUST stay detached and be quite clear that there's a long road ahead, and I'm not waxing poetic. This would be your life's work in poultry, just like Dorkings, La Fleche, Houdans, Creves, Redcaps--their redemption lies in decades of commitment, and the more focused folks are around very specific varieties the greater the chances of eventual success.

With this variety/breed. It is not a matter of acquiring a good line, it is a matter of finding any examples of the breed. I knew when I started that they were endangered and needed lots of work. I just didn't know how bad a shape they are in. These birds, though not perfect, are where I'm at. I have to work with these until such time as I have acquired or produced something better. I will just keep plugging away, and keep looking for more, and appreciating whatever progress and assistance I get along the way.

Yes, indeed, but there's no shame--none at all--in shifting to the Goldens, and it's not a pride thing; it's an understanding thing. It's just like when I try to urge people towards the White Dorkings. It's the old Roman teaching that "united we stand, divided we fall."

I suppose if you want to get somewhere faster than what you are now, you'll have to hatch 150-200 chicks a year and select only the very best. By hatching in large numbers you get a bigger selection. I experienced it in my Cubalaya by hatching 350 chicks a year,

Not a doubt. Even working with Goldens, you're going to want to hatch as many as possible, but with the Silvers it will entail hatching as many as you can and culling as soon as you can.

Wisher, please read my comments as being in deep respect for your efforts, time, money, and potential as a breeder. You can be successful with the Silvers, but you must have no illusions at all that their redemption is in a few hundred chicks over a number of years. On a certain level, you might find a lot more enjoyment in a simple shift in color.

Best,

Joseph

 

[Wisher1000]

Quote:
Dear, Joseph, from one meeting and many posts and PMs, I have come to regard you as a knowledgeable breeder and a man of character. It is not likely that I would take any criticism or direction from you as anything less than sincere effort to assist.

I cannot adequately express the depth of my gratitude (and just as I predicted, it takes great restraint on my part not to make a nuisance of myself.

)

Alright, everyone, I'm officially looking for the best Golden Campine pullets/hens that I can find...... (crossing the GC female with a SC male will produce sex-linked chicks, Silver females and Golden males. Right, Joseph?)

Lisa

 

[Yellow House Farm]

Alright, everyone, I'm officially looking for the best Golden Campine pullets/hens that I can find...... (crossing the GC female with a SC male will produce sex-linked chicks, Silver females and Golden males. Right, Joseph?)

Lisa

" I need to take advantage of the better type that Golden breeders have already achieved in order to improve the Silvers (eureka moment!) I can glean the better skeletal structure I need from those Golden pullets, and also enjoy the beautiful Goldens at my own barn (win/win.)"

Yup. You need them to introduce variance into the genetic make-up of what you have, and the added genes are the best genes from the Golden females you are going to get within the Campine breed. It will create the close potential for the elimination of the negative trait with which you are struggling.

It is the Silver gene, "S", that is the sex-linked factor, which means that, if you use a Silver male over Golden females, all of the chicks will be phenotypically (to the eye) silver; the will however be split, or heterogeneous, i.e. half and half, for Golden. The negative to this is that Golden will pop up in your hatches for multiple seasons, and in your Silvers there will be leaking, i.e. otherwise Silver birds than show Golden influences. Your eventual desire would be to create birds that are "S/S" homogeneous for Silver so that the color bleeding will stop. Males are often the worst offenders. However, frustrating as this may be, you will be much closer to looking at high quality Silvers.

It will, however, create a huge need for discipline on your part because, to get the prize, you need to use your infrastructure for the Silvers, which means you're going to want to cull away from the Goldens, and this is something that can be hard to do--trust me. I've had to do it twice now, and it takes an enormous evocation of discipline, but the result is approaching the prize, and that is rather swell.

Do let me know if you think that you will be able to get to Ohio.

PS: Do you know Chris McCary, he breeds Buckeyes and La Fleche and is also--I believe--from Alabama?

 

[Caitlin_VT]

I'm not sure if this fits in completely with these discussions, but how does one find a mentor? I'm afraid they are few and far between here in Vermont. I have found a number of great poultry people, but they are not breeding to standards nor are they showing. And what I would like to do is start exhibiting my birds next year if possible. The more I read, the more worried I get that I will make a great buffoon of myself and my birds! FWIW I am growing out my first generation of Ameraucanas. My first thought was to join the ABC but there are sadly no breeders listed for Vermont. Any insight would be greatly appreciated! Thank you.

 

[chickadoodles]

Chris McCary is in North AL. He is who I am picking up my Buckeyes from Wisher if you want his email addy pm me and I will give it to you. He is very nice and helpful.

 

[Wisher1000]

It is the Silver gene, "S", that is the sex-linked factor, which means that, if you use a Silver male over Golden females, all of the chicks will be phenotypically (to the eye) silver; the will however be split, or heterogeneous, i.e. half and half, for Golden. The negative to this is that Golden will pop up in your hatches for multiple seasons, and in your Silvers there will be leaking, i.e. otherwise Silver birds than show Golden influences. Your eventual desire would be to create birds that are "S/S" homogeneous for Silver so that the color bleeding will stop.

**

Males are often the worst offenders. However, frustrating as this may be, you will be much closer to looking at high quality Silvers.

It will, however, create a huge need for discipline on your part because, to get the prize, you need to use your infrastructure for the Silvers, which means you're going to want to cull away from the Goldens, and this is something that can be hard to do--trust me. I've had to do it twice now, and it takes an enormous evocation of discipline, but the result is approaching the prize, and that is rather swell.

Do let me know if you think that you will be able to get to Ohio.

PS: Do you know Chris McCary, he breeds Buckeyes and La Fleche and is also--I believe--from Alabama?

**To do this, I would cross back to the Silver cock through enough generations to keep the leakage to a minimum?

I told everyone that as soon as I was established with SCs I would be getting rid of all the other birds I have. Well......... you are right, it's hard. I'll keep trying.

I am planning on it. I have been in contact with Mr. Bob Rhodes about his SCs. His dad raised them in the early 1900s but the line was lost. Mr. Rhodes has been working up a line from hatchery birds and offered to share some with me at Ohio. I am also looking at going to Knoxville in December.

I do not, but I will make it a point to get in touch with him, thanks.

I'm not sure if this fits in completely with these discussions, but how does one find a mentor? I'm afraid they are few and far between here in Vermont. I have found a number of great poultry people, but they are not breeding to standards nor are they showing. And what I would like to do is start exhibiting my birds next year if possible. The more I read, the more worried I get that I will make a great buffoon of myself and my birds! FWIW I am growing out my first generation of Ameraucanas. My first thought was to join the ABC but there are sadly no breeders listed for Vermont. Any insight would be greatly appreciated! Thank you.

Caitlin, my advice is to start going to shows. Certainly the closest ones to your location, but also the largest ones you can find, even if they are a ways off. Introduce yourself, then listen, just listen.

Chris McCary is in North AL. He is who I am picking up my Buckeyes from Wisher if you want his email addy pm me and I will give it to you. He is very nice and helpful.

PM sent!

 

[MagicChicken]

I'm not sure if this fits in completely with these discussions, but how does one find a mentor? I'm afraid they are few and far between here in Vermont. I have found a number of great poultry people, but they are not breeding to standards nor are they showing. And what I would like to do is start exhibiting my birds next year if possible. The more I read, the more worried I get that I will make a great buffoon of myself and my birds! FWIW I am growing out my first generation of Ameraucanas. My first thought was to join the ABC but there are sadly no breeders listed for Vermont. Any insight would be greatly appreciated! Thank you.

The American Poultry Association (APA) has contact information associated with the various meets and shows. The APA includes both large fowl and bantams. Vermont is in District 1. Check under District 1 sanctioned meets - there is contact info for Vermont Poultry Breeders, which is probably a good place to start. Be aware that many of the most knowledgeable breeders are not online. Your best bet for finding them is through poultry clubs and sanctioned shows.

APA: http://www.amerpoultryassn.com/index.htm

 

[Yellow House Farm]

I'm not sure if this fits in completely with these discussions, but how does one find a mentor? I'm afraid they are few and far between here in Vermont. I have found a number of great poultry people, but they are not breeding to standards nor are they showing. And what I would like to do is start exhibiting my birds next year if possible. The more I read, the more worried I get that I will make a great buffoon of myself and my birds! FWIW I am growing out my first generation of Ameraucanas. My first thought was to join the ABC but there are sadly no breeders listed for Vermont. Any insight would be greatly appreciated! Thank you.

Caitlin! Greetings! I am secretary of the New Hampshire Poultry Fanciers Association, which would probably be your home club. If you're in the very south of Vermont, you might consider it the Boston Poultry Expo or the North Eastern Poultry Congress. Vermont doesn't have its own group, but with the size of New England it doesn't matter. Most New England folk are involved in all of the New England shows, and we all make them happen to some degree.

Now, as to your comment, you're not going to make a buffoon out of yourself, but you might go about it all wrong. So, in the spirit of avoiding as many beginner's bloopers as possible:

1. Come with a spirit of openness and enthusiasm and with a willingness to learn.

2. New Englanders are New Englanders, if it takes you a few seasons to feel like you're getting to know everyone, that's OK.

3. If you really--honestly--want to learn about exhibition poultry, volunteer at the set-up and or tear-down of the show. It is there that you will make connections, hear stories, find the right moment to get some advice, etc... Set-up and tear-down is some of the most important time for entering the community.

4. DON'T (!!!!) confuse yourself with your birds. If you find out that your birds aren't all that good, who cares. Big deal. Get good birds. That's all. Don't be insulted. Don't feel hurt. Many, many people get chickens from an inappropriate source--to their unawares, of course--and then they come to a show, only to find out that they were bamboozled by the seller. It's one of the tried and true ports of entry. What you do at that moment is what is telling. For example, if you got hatchery Ameraucana, which aren't really Ameraucanas but Easter Eggers, then they're not going to be good exhibition stock. One doesn't get hand-fashioned furniture from Wal-Mart. The place to get Ameraucanas is from breeders associated with the APA. To find out about those breeders, join the APA (American Poultry Association) and attend shows. When you're part of the community, everyone will help you out.

5. Get your American Standard of Perfection from the APA. Here's the link: SOP Bring it to the shows to which you go and study the birds. This is the Bible of exhibition poultry. Without it you're not doing anything. It cost just shy of $60.00 including shipment. When I know that someone doesn't have a standard, I know that they're not learning. Get the SOP, start reading it, and then use it at the shows to look at every bird. It's a great way to get a conversation going, too.

6. The Maine show is the first Sunday in October. The NH show is the second Sunday in October. The RI show is the 3rd Sunday in October. The Boston Expo is the first weekend in November. The Ohio National is the 2nd weekend in November; we caravan out for this. The Northeastern Poultry Congress is the 2nd or 3rd weekend in January.

7. Hope to see you there!

 

[Yellow House Farm]

**To do this, I would cross back to the Silver cock through enough generations to keep the leakage to a minimum?

I told everyone that as soon as I was established with SCs I would be getting rid of all the other birds I have. Well......... you are right, it's hard. I'll keep trying.

I am planning on it. I have been in contact with Mr. Bob Rhodes about his SCs. His dad raised them in the early 1900s but the line was lost. Mr. Rhodes has been working up a line from hatchery birds and offered to share some with me at Ohio. I am also looking at going to Knoxville in December.

If you use your current stock to cover Golden hens, you would use them once, hatch a mega-ton of chicks, cull the heck of them, and then discard your Urch birds. You wouldn't want to use them more than once.

You could reinforce your Silver with another Silver line, but you would want to do it gradually. You would not want to choose atypical stock without leakage over typical stock with a little brassiness. You want to capture the weight and type genes, and then, perhaps, touch up the Silver through the occasional, Silver outcross to a S male, always being conscious of not back stepping in type, and there are a few ways to ensure this.

I do believe Chris will be going to Ohio. He MIGHT be able to be of help. Let me know what's going to happen, though, far ahead of time. I might be able to finagle something if I have notice.