A Heritage of Perfection: Standard-bred Large Fowl

[Yellow House Farm]

I got Duckworth line BR, this year and I am thoroughly enjoying them. They are inherently beautiful in their soundness of structure/conformation. Even friends of mine who know nothing comment on it. I hope that I can live with their overall production qualities. I am more than willing to make compromises in order to have these birds on my property and I enjoy the history of BR and other American Class breeds. I think some breeds would benefit by having a larger community of people interested in them.

Production is generation to generation. It all depends on you. Even were they strong producers, it would still depend on you to maintain it. Two or three years is all it takes to bring it right down.

 

[Matt1616]

Every year I enjoy the shows, and every year I realize that large fowl are in trouble. As Matt Llamon put it, "they're dying a slow death." In New England, the top large fowl are: Salmon Faverolles, Light Brahmas, Australorps, Anconas, White Dorkings, WC Blk Polish, Silver Spangled Hamburgs, White Wyandottes, Dominiques, Buff Cochins, Buff Orpingtons, NHs and Langshans. Of all of them, only the Faverolles, Brahma, Anconas, Dorkings, Australorps, and Langshans are being bred in a strong enough number to ensure continued success. Each one only really has one steward. Two stewards in particular maintain four of these breeds. That's not a very base. There are, perhaps, some upcoming Barnevelders if the breeder is able to maintain focus.

I bet nationally it would be hard to come up with a list of 50 hard core large fowl breeders that specialize and maintain a strong program. Indeed, at a meeting after the Boston show, some people were just calling a spade a spade, and some think that large fowl are doomed.

One reason is that it's just not as cheap as bantams. Brian Knox likes to quote Harry Halbach who used to say that the cost ratio is 5:1. I've seen it; 'tis hard to ignore.

Another huge problem is the lack of specialization, which is the only way these breeds were ever developed. People are so often more concerned with variety than with quality.

Too many people are wooed by junk novelty; they prefer margarine over butter because they like the commercial. At the Boston show, there were some Bredas on display. Greenfire Farms strikes again. They were junk--absolute, undeniable, utter junk--genetically pathetic. I wonder how much that folly cost? They're never going to amount to anything. The best they offer is a laugh to all of us who are going, "Oh, geesh." It's too bad, another potential breeder lost.

I think that, in the never ending quest to be unique, people are so often drawn to the most obscure breeds or the most obscure variety. They end up selecting something for which their limited resources are never going to be sufficient to achieve success. Many times they're selecting breeds that were never important, which means they were never developed to a high level of quality in the first place.

So, why this reality check?

Well, I believe that only through honesty can anything of value be accomplished, and honesty allows us to observe, respect, diagnose, and act.

First of all, some breeds and many varieties are going to fail. They're going to disappear, and that's OK. They represent a time period that is no more, a time when fowl were so common that there were genetics, know-how, and poultry-friendly resources to burn. That time is past.

Secondly, it takes an enormous dose of honesty to assess one's situation and realize what one is willing and able to accomplish.

Something else to consider, is that rebels constitute, perhaps, the single largest group of conformists. I have seen through years of serving as an educator that the rule is to rebel, to not listen, to not learn, to not put into practice, to cling to willful ignorance. The unique individual is the rare one who listens closely and obeys, who is more concerned with achievement and quality than constant self-assertion without reflection. In poultry, this sort of "rebellion" leads to dissolution. As one judge and waterfowl breed put it after the Boston show, "How many come to understand? Maybe two out of thousands." Everyone just nodded in agreement. If one plays the game long enough, one realizes that poultry breeding is like a revolving door issuing in one trade off after another; our collective poultry genetics get passed left and right in an unending game of experimentation and whim, and with each pass the stock declines in value and substance.

So what is needed?

First and foremost, commitment and stability are the keys.

It takes multiple breeding seasons to begin to understand your stock.

It takes a mentor to keep you from exacerbating your genetics in the multiple years it takes to get to know your breed. It takes a village to raise a child and a team to breed a good chicken

It demands specialization, requires it unapologetically, and withholds all progress until it is the force behind the breeding program.

It takes continuous education in research and hands on experience, a huge portion of it to be had at shows.

It requires an ear to listen and tenacity to implement

The rewards?

Success in breeding birds that improve

A beautiful flock of birds that stuns even the uninitiated by the sheer force of their beauty and symmetry

A community of peers of like regard who take genuine interest in your endeavors and who are your best cheerleaders and guides

The fun and confidence that come from mastery

Joseph, it is interesting that you have that prospective on Large Fowl because my experience has been quite the opposite. Here in the Southeast the numbers of Large Fowl have grown to very good numbers in the last 3-5 years. Prior to the last 5 years you were lucky to see 30 Large Fowl at any show in the South and now an average show has 100-150...with a couple show having 200+. The fact that there are more Bantams than Large Fowl has been the norm for 70-80 years. Nothing new there. In my little area of the country Large Fowl have made a remarkable come back and I hope we can continue on that path.
I was appointed APA State Rep for Alabama this past spring and my goal as State Rep is to get all the poultry shows in Alabama sanctioned as APA to go along with their sanctioning with the ABA. There are currently 4 clubs in Alabama holding shows all of which were ALL Bantam shows for many years. As of yesterday 3 of the 4 have agreed to sanction APA and allow Large Fowl at their spring shows in 2015.
So, I guess what I am saying is that I am going to have to disagree with Matt Lhamon that "they are dying a slow death" because they are alive and well in the Southeast.

 

[Wisher1000]

Matt! That is GREAT news! I have been traveling to other states because there are no LF shows down here. Please post or PM me the names and dates for those shows so I can be sure to put them on my calendar. Will there be a youth showmanship program? I am just starting up a 4-h youth poultry club here in Tuscaloosa County and would love to train them up and travel to shows that are close by. I had just about decided not to work on exhibition much because I would not be able to take them out of state to shows. I'm excited!! I am trying my best to help the kids get interested in Standard Poultry so hopefully those dedicated breeders that Joseph pines for will be ready to take the reins in the future.

 

[NanaKat]

Quote: Walt...I am concerned about the comb....I was reading the thread on the "Genetics of combs" to see if I could find out percentages of offspring that might have the same type of spikes....I'm not getting much information there on the rose comb.
Looking at his conformation and type as the best of the cockerels this year, was my reasoning for using him.
Knowing that I culled heavily for combs last year and will have to cull hard for it this year, I was hoping to get a better idea after the test eggs hatch and grow off some in the few months before spring breeding..
The flock has increased from the original 7 to 27 this year. There are two up and coming cockerels that have nice smooth combs but they are not breeding age for spring and don't appear yet to have the good solid body this male has.
How much trouble am I looking at if I choose to use him for breeding...taking the trade off for better conformation.

I respect your opinion...am I being coop blind on his conformation?
As a respected fowlman, I would appreciate your candor.

 

[NeilsHamburgs]

Use him and then make a decision.

 

[NanaKat]

Quote: Agreed. the flock I have has been closed for almost 20 years without new blood being added. It has been an enormous struggle to grow the birds out old enough to really find the good ones to keep and cull the rest. Some characteristics are easy to select like combs and leg color as well as stance. Others require aging the bird on the ground for the type and conformation to develop before final selections. Hatching 200 two years ago helped, but this year the hatch numbers were way down.

Quote: We have noticed the same things in the shows we have attended. Am anxious to get my NPIP so I can begin to show the better Columbian Wyandotte in the flock to help raise interest in the breed.

 

[fowlman01]

Walt...I am concerned about the comb....I was reading the thread on the "Genetics of combs" to see if I could find out percentages of offspring that might have the same type of spikes....I'm not getting much information there on the rose comb. 
Looking at his conformation and type as the best of the cockerels this year, was my reasoning for using him. 
Knowing that I culled heavily for combs last year and will have to cull hard for it this year, I was hoping to get a better idea after the test eggs hatch and grow off some in the few months before spring breeding.. 
The flock has increased from the original 7 to 27 this year.  There are two up and coming cockerels that have nice smooth combs but they are not breeding age for spring and don't appear yet to have the good solid body this male has.
How much trouble am I looking at  if I choose to use him for breeding...taking the trade off for better conformation.

I respect your opinion...am I being coop blind on his conformation?
As a respected fowlman, I would appreciate your candor. 

you can use anything you think will work just keep great records so that you can tell which offspring have the problem along with the mother and father. The males are obvious, but look closely at the females. Bad combs are often overlooked in females.

Walt

 

[NanaKat]

@fowlman01 Walt, Thank you. I have noticed that comb problems either are very easy to distinguish from the beginning or begin to surface after the adult molt. The hens are definitely more difficult to distinguish as their combs stay smaller until enlarging before point of lay.

Last year when I was focusing on combs I tried to cull all the early combs at 4 and 8 weeks. Then again at 20 weeks. At that point, I let the birds grow and studied them again closely at 6 - 7 months of age. Of 200 chicks that hatched, I lost 15 over the same time frame to cocci and predators. The birds that have made it to 9 - 11 months is 15....5 cockerels and 10 pullets. After this molt, I will pull out a few more for the freezer.
Besides toe-punching by pen, photos of each bird, I have the infrastructure to breed as trios in separate pens. Hopefully that will help me determine better the source of the comb problems.

Thinking as I type.....
Last year I used only two cocks for breeding...my original cock and one of his sons. The original cock had a few bumps on his comb and better type while his son had a smooth comb, nice conformation but not as nice color. The cockerel in the photos above is from the original cock. So some issues from him and some nicer combs...perhaps influenced from the mothers genetics.

So based on your suggestion " you can use anything you think will work just keep great records so that you can tell which offspring have the problem along with the mother and father. The males are obvious, but look closely at the females. Bad combs are often overlooked in females.", it appears I need to do some single matings to help determine which hens are possibly contributing to the problem.
Looks like I have my work set out for this year in the breeding pens.

 

[MagicChicken]

@fowlman01 Walt, Thank you. I have noticed that comb problems either are very easy to distinguish from the beginning or begin to surface after the adult molt. The hens are definitely more difficult to distinguish as their combs stay smaller until enlarging before point of lay.

Last year when I was focusing on combs I tried to cull all the early combs at 4 and 8 weeks. Then again at 20 weeks. At that point, I let the birds grow and studied them again closely at 6 - 7 months of age. Of 200 chicks that hatched, I lost 15 over the same time frame to cocci and predators. The birds that have made it to 9 - 11 months is 15....5 cockerels and 10 pullets. After this molt, I will pull out a few more for the freezer.
Besides toe-punching by pen, photos of each bird, I have the infrastructure to breed as trios in separate pens. Hopefully that will help me determine better the source of the comb problems.

Thinking as I type.....
Last year I used only two cocks for breeding...my original cock and one of his sons. The original cock had a few bumps on his comb and better type while his son had a smooth comb, nice conformation but not as nice color. The cockerel in the photos above is from the original cock. So some issues from him and some nicer combs...perhaps influenced from the mothers genetics.

So based on your suggestion " you can use anything you think will work just keep great records so that you can tell which offspring have the problem along with the mother and father. The males are obvious, but look closely at the females. Bad combs are often overlooked in females.", it appears I need to do some single matings to help determine which hens are possibly contributing to the problem.
Looks like I have my work set out for this year in the breeding pens.

When you start doing single matings you might want to consider wing-tagging the chicks as well as toe-punching. It makes it much easier to keep detailed records.

 

[NanaKat]

Quote: Good idea! I can toe punch by sire and wing tag by hen. I can set up a rotation system using some nice kennel cages I bought recently and set them up off the ground on a wooden framework inside a chain link run that is already in place. The cock could be in the run with each hen for breeding and each hen could be returned to her cage for laying. These are 12 foot sections of four 2 x 3 foot cages made from 1 x 2 inch plastic coated wire. I can roof them with either tin or plywood covered with roll roofing.....Oh how my creative juices are now flowing. Hubby is going to have to do the lumber work....until my shoulder heals.

We bought 4 of the sections off Craigslist .....oh the possibilities for the future....With 4 of these sections, there could be four cock birds each having his own trio of hens...
Initially I bought these to study individual birds in the culling process....they stack and are stored behind the barn.....