A Heritage of Perfection: Standard-bred Large Fowl

Thank you bgmatt! I was hoping you'd be willing to give me advice here!

I have been thinking about dropping the Phoenix, though they do make nice little broodies--if I do keep any of them it will likely be the fawns if I can get that color and pattern where I want it. The Brabanters may or may not be around after this year--if I do keep them it will likely only be the gold and I'll get rid of the creme.

I'm putting eggs in the incubator today--plan to set about 3 dozen Langshans with the plan of having two trios max from the hatch by fall. One GOOD thing about culling is that I get a really, really good look at the carcass quality, and since the breed was originally multipurposed including as a table fowl that's a big factor in the birds I plan to keep. The Langshans I have right now are good layers, but personally I think they're a bit on the small side, and I had some issues with stiltiness on last year's hatch--the culls made good eating, but the depth of breast and therefore the amount of meat just wasn't there. That's not to say they should be built like a Cornish, though!

The good news is that I do have space--one whole wall of the garage is devoted to brooder space (with removable partitions so I can change the configuration as my needs change over the course of the season), the empty fish room in the basement can house both incubators and brooder cages, and there's plenty of room for arks and runs as the weather stabilizes, not to mention the freestanding poultry sheds with attached runs (and the plans to build one more that's a combo of shed/runs/greenhouse this summer). The good thing with the Langshans is that, unlike the bantams, they're big enough the Cooper's hawks don't seem to go after them, so the adult birds free range much of the time here outside of breeding season. I do have issues with raccoons, but the birds get locked up every night without fail--they're definitely happier and healthier when they can roam and eat bugs!

I'll have to look up the historical reference you listed. The way I look at it, the history of the breed explains may of the characteristics I should look for and preserve as a breeder. The characteristics people selected for at the time the standard was established are what should define the breed today, IMO.

And yes, agree totally you can't fix too many things at once. I'm fortunate that I started with birds that are healthy, disease resistant, and fertile. Size and stiltiness (which seem to me to be interrelated) are tops on my list this season. I carried over five cockerels and pullets and did the last culls early this month (cockerels: one stilty, two with side sprigs though they had great type), and have two pullets who are in the layer-only pen due to lack of correct leg/toe feathering and purple on some feathers. Have one more cock (the foundation bird) who is not in the breeding pens this spring--the two sons I kept are better birds--but who is still around as a backup since he throws good birds. So, if his sons turn out to throw crappy offspring I can still go back to the foundation....Ditto for the senior hen.

So, I hope to bring up the size and get better body depth/less stiltiness for starters overall. The hens look a little narrow through the tail now that I've been looking at good Langshans here (though they have nice depth of body and nice tail carriage), so I hope to fix that with the nice wide tails on the cocks I kept. I have one hen I kept with white tips on her toe feathering and made darn sure she's in the pen with the cock that has NO white anywhere since she had what I consider to be the best body type. Total breeding pens for them is two quads, and if I go much higher than that each spring it probably means I'm not being selective enough.

I do hope to show them in Columbus in November and get feedback not just from the judges but from other breeders. You are absolutely right that the best show birds may not be the best breeders--I've seen it time and time again with my sheep. One other factor, of course, is that some breedings just "click" and consistently throw offspring better than either parent (have a few ram and ewe pairings that work that way right now). Sometimes you just don't know what sort of breeders you're working with until the first offspring hit the ground....

Catherine

A good rule of thumb is for every bird you wish to keep hatch 10. So if you're hatching and raising about 30, that should give you three solid birds to add to your breeding program. Glad you are keeping an eye on carcass quality, not many folks these days actually eat their Langshans, which is an important aspect of the breed in my view.

Sounds like you've got a good handle on space. Langshans do well on range (although I don't, too much risk, more so biosecurity from wild birds than predators though).

Historical traits are nice, but why limit ourselves to what they could do centuries ago? We know so much more about genetics, food, management etc. However, many breeds fall short in this way, they're either bred only for production and lose the look, or bred for look and lose the production. Will get off that tangent though, I just think we should look to at least match, but SHOULD be able to exceed what was done centuries ago.

When you say size, do you mean weight? Height? Width? One thing that tends to go hand in hand with stilty legs is also knock kneed or "hockiness", which is something that's highly objectionable as well, so keep an eye on that from the front of the bird, selecting for nice wide bodies helps with this too.

Don't concern yourself too much with white tips on toe feathers, it's not a real point cut in the showroom and is something that is mentioned back in the earliest writings of the bird. It could be stress feathering too if it's a young bird, or juvenile plumage. Often my blacks have white tipping on foot feathering, or even wing feathers until they get around 4-5 months. Although now that I think about it the Blues don't, which strikes me as odd. Good plan to keep breedings small, I try and keep it to trios with the females being either full sisters or mother/daughter, just so that it's easier to know exactly what produces what.

Even after all these years I still don't know what to do with the breedings that produce superior birds than either parent. It's a nice thing to have happen, but until the offspring are proven producers of good birds themselves there's always the fear of regression. As poultry breeders know there is no such thing as maintaining quality, you're either getting better with each generation or getting worse. Generally though Langshans tend to be fairly easy to breed and reproduce fairly true to what you expect (to the point that I can tell which breeding trio a given cockerel or pullet came from due to it's physical traits without bothering to consult records).
 
Yes, we should definitely be able to exceed what was done centuries ago or even decades ago--but I don't want to sacrifice the original purpose of the fowl for a modern fad (been reading the langshan thread--at about p. 216 right now, and I agree with ropo about not wanting to sacrifice SOP traits for egg color). I'd like to hope that each generation of birds comes closer and closer to the ideal outlined in the standard.

As far as numbers to hatch: the 10 for 1 rule is always in the back of my mind--but I'd rather be conservative on my hatches to start and make SURE I can provide adequate space, feed, and care before I ramp up my hatch numbers. From what I gather, these birds have long and productive lives so if I don't hatch huge numbers this year I should still have a reasonable expectation of hatches from them next.

As far as size: for me it's a combination of weight, depth of breast, overall body structure (narrow and shallow), and yes tall and knock kneed legs. I want birds with that lovely smooth wineglass shape, the smooth curve from breast to legs (indicating plenty of breast meat at butchering) and the legs and body structure to carry the bird through a long and productive life. Birds with poor leg structure seem unlikely to be able to move around freely to forage and roost and generally be chickens, and a shallow/narrow structure indicates to me that the bird lacks the interior space for adequate organ growth and thus has a lesser productive potential in eggs or meat or both. I hope that makes sense....

If I'm going to breed anything, whether it's the sheep, or the birds or the dogs (when I had Springer Spaniels) my goal is always to improve the breed. It costs just as much to feed a crappy example of whatever as it does to feed a good one, and I feel strongly it's my responsibility as a responsible breeder to both produce animals that meet their respective standards and to limit my breeding to what I can adequately house and care for....

I hope someday to know my stock well enough to be able to identify offspring without consulting breeding records, but I'm not there yet with the birds. I'm about there with the sheep, but I've been working with my foundation lines on them for over a decade. With luck I'll get there with the birds as well!
 
Working on size, type, legs and combs in the Columbian Wyandotte. From last year, this is the only F1 cockerel saved from the White Wyandotte cock over the Columbian hens.

Would like comments ...So far, I'm thinking that other than the barring, he might do well bred back to his mother and another CW hen with strong color. There were 10 Columbian patterned cockerels from this pen. He was the best. Also got several nice pullets I'm holding for consideration.





The barred Wyandotte is also from the same cross White over CW. He will make a nice cock for the layer yard. The hens already answer his call. He has nice type and size. Not sure what would come from breeding him to a CW hen. The majority of the chicks from this cross were black barred cockerels. Only got one hen from the cross.


 
I've been a lurker for some time, but I do have a question...

I don't currently have birds and have mostly had hatchery quality in the past, though I was blessed enough to receive some standard bred Polish culled from a breeder's show flock many years back. At the time I had neither the infrastructure nor budget to delve deeply into SOP large fowl that most interested me.

My husband and I are looking for land now where we will be able to start a small farmstead with good quality, standard bred chickens at the top of our priority list. In the meantime I'm studying my copy of the SOP, reading the threads here to help refine my eye, studying everything I can find discussing breeding theory, and stalking certain members' posts to learn as much as possible.

I see how the characteristics delineated in the SOP describe a bird that is not only beautiful but also most suited for the breed's original purpose. I even see how important it is that there be consistent coloring within varieties, to a certain extent.

My question is about black coloring... Why is a purple sheen bad and a green one good? Is it related to other genes linked to the trait, a sign of bad selection iin other areas, or simply a cosmetic preference handed down for many years? I don't have a problem with the latter, just curious.

Thank you all for providing so much solid information!

Beth
 
That is a good question, Beth. Oh, and welcome to BYC. I have wondered this myself and will be interested in hearing the answer. I have a beautiful purple (black) Ameraucana cock that I picked up at Knoxville. He is not show quality, because of the purple, but otherwise, he is a very nice type and size. I figured I should be able to sell his offspring to 12 year old girls all day long! I would, however, like to know how the purple sheen translates genetically and if there would be a reason to use him, say for blues. (BTW - I don't breed Ameraucanas, I just have a few for the blue eggs because my family likes them.)
 
I've been a lurker for some time, but I do have a question...

I don't currently have birds and have mostly had hatchery quality in the past, though I was blessed enough to receive some standard bred Polish culled from a breeder's show flock many years back. At the time I had neither the infrastructure nor budget to delve deeply into SOP large fowl that most interested me.

My husband and I are looking for land now where we will be able to start a small farmstead with good quality, standard bred chickens at the top of our priority list. In the meantime I'm studying my copy of the SOP, reading the threads here to help refine my eye, studying everything I can find discussing breeding theory, and stalking certain members' posts to learn as much as possible.

I see how the characteristics delineated in the SOP describe a bird that is not only beautiful but also most suited for the breed's original purpose. I even see how important it is that there be consistent coloring within varieties, to a certain extent.

My question is about black coloring... Why is a purple sheen bad and a green one good? Is it related to other genes linked to the trait, a sign of bad selection iin other areas, or simply a cosmetic preference handed down for many years? I don't have a problem with the latter, just curious.

Thank you all for providing so much solid information!

Beth
Hi Beth,
Purple sheen can be a sign of improper nutrition. And improper raising of the chicks. It's an interesting subject with more to it than that. Much written on the Net about it. An interesting study. Poultry breeders are very opinionated about it and the positive value of the green sheen.
http://tinyurl.com/1hhpsk4 Page 81, purple and green barring.
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https://www.archive.org/details/cu31924003158312 Pages 26 and 29 and 2 other places in the book. This is one of my fav books about poultry breeding. The info you are looking for is on page 27 of this book. The books' page, not any page declared by archive.org ( which is sometimes not the same, smile_.
Ok, so you may be wondering what is a "short pedigree" and foreign blood". I would hazard an educated guess that a short pedigree is less than 5 generations of inbreeding ( because Card states on one of the other "twenty-something" pages that it takes 5 generations of inbreeding get back to their sire to have him stamp his color on the get. How many generations of Linebreeding to escape a "short pedigree" ?, not sure, tho I am sure Card has a quality answer on this pithy little book.
Ok, so a short pedigree is one in which the group of birds has not been bred together for a long enough time to stabilize the gene pool according to the Standard for those birds. Something was added into the gene pool "not too far back" or the birds were of inferior quality "not too far back". And the birds are still throwing evidence of inferior quality or foreign blood. What is foreign blood? It is mixing something into the gene pool of a group of birds which isn't normally there. It can be a cross to another breed. Or a variety in a breed. Usually done to enhance one or more qualities of the original group of birds. However, such addition of foreign blood almost always brings in unwanted genetic messengers which have to be winnowed out carefully by the breeder. Until he has brought his group of birds back to their former state of excellence with the addition of the wanted new traits ad the deletion of any unwanted traits which rode in on the wanted traits coat-tails, so to speak, grin.
One example of this "short pedigree, foreign blood" problem is some strains of the Black Copper Marans. Early on here in the US they were crossed to Wheaten Marans to enhance some traits. However, the cross also brought in Wheaten color genes. This caused much effort on the part of serious Marans breeders to get those Black Coppers to breed true again and not throw Wheaten chicks or show Wheaten color tendencies in their Black Copper coloring. Even today, 15 years later, we see some Black Copper throwing Wheaten chicks. These are groups of Black Copper with "short pedigrees" influenced by the "foreign blood" of the Wheaten cross. Eventually, if the breeders select correctly, those particular Black Coppers will breed true again, having had the Wheaten influences bred out of them by careful selection. This is why you want to select your foundation birds from a breeder who has line bred their birds for many generations and can compete successfully in quality competition over multiple generations. This shows the breeder has worked to stabilize the bird's gene pool according to the Standard for that breed.


Best,
Karen
 
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Hmmm. In previous years most of my black birds had green sheen and purple barring. This year only a few birds have purple barring so things are improving. But one pullet has a solid purple and green sheen. The sheen is solid purple at some angles, solid green at others, and if you look at her just right you can see both colors at the same time. Her purple does not appear to be barred. She is one of my largest pullets, and has the best body shape of any of my pullets or hens. This green-and-purple sheened pullet has been housed and fed with the rest of her siblings. She is one of the more dominant birds in her pen so she isn't getting shorted on feed. I don't think I can blame her purple on nutrition or environmental conditions. I have her tagged as a keeper due to her size and shape, but I am flummoxed by the solid purple. It is not something I wish to encourage.

All of my black birds have an ordinary level of green sheen. I am still looking to bring back the extraordinary green some of my birds had a few years back. Haven't been able to repeat it since the neighborhood dogs wiped out most of my brilliant green birds a couple of years ago. While environment and nutrition may be contributing factors, I suspect there are also significant genetic components to both the green and the purple sheens.

Thanks for posting that link. It was fascinating.
 
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I had a hen just like what you described. Very big, very healthy Black Langshan x Speckled Sussex girl with brilliant beetle green sheen... and also a lovely purple sheen at the right angle.
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