A Heritage of Perfection: Standard-bred Large Fowl

[BGMatt]

Hmmm. In previous years most of my black birds had green sheen and purple barring. This year only a few birds have purple barring so things are improving. But one pullet has a solid purple and green sheen. The sheen is solid purple at some angles, solid green at others, and if you look at her just right you can see both colors at the same time. Her purple does not appear to be barred. She is one of my largest pullets, and has the best body shape of any of my pullets or hens. This green-and-purple sheened pullet has been housed and fed with the rest of her siblings. She is one of the more dominant birds in her pen so she isn't getting shorted on feed. I don't think I can blame her purple on nutrition or environmental conditions. I have her tagged as a keeper due to her size and shape, but I am flummoxed by the solid purple. It is not something I wish to encourage.

All of my black birds have an ordinary level of green sheen. I am still looking to bring back the extraordinary green some of my birds had a few years back. Haven't been able to repeat it since the neighborhood dogs wiped out most of my brilliant green birds a couple of years ago. While environment and nutrition may be contributing factors, I suspect there are also significant genetic components to both the green and the purple sheens.

Thanks for posting that link. It was fascinating.

Purple sheens can be genetic or due to poor nutrition. Purple barring is an indicator of stress (similar to how barring can show up in chicks raised in stressful conditions and then go away with adult feathering). No sheen at all is seen as a bad thing because it is usually indicative of poor feather quality, which isn't as resistant to the elements, doesn't properly insulate the bird etc etc.

 

[rangehen]

Hi Beth, 
Purple sheen can be a sign of improper nutrition.  And improper raising of the chicks. It's an interesting subject with more to it than that. Much written on the Net about it. An interesting study.   Poultry breeders are very opinionated about it and the positive value of the green sheen.
http://tinyurl.com/1hhpsk4  Page 81, purple and green barring.
---------------------------
https://www.archive.org/details/cu31924003158312 Pages 26 and 29 and 2 other places in the book. This is one of my fav books about poultry breeding. The info you are looking for is on page 27 of this book. The books' page, not any page declared by archive.org ( which is sometimes not the same, smile_.
Ok, so you may be wondering what is a "short pedigree" and foreign blood". I would hazard an educated guess that a short pedigree is less than 5 generations of inbreeding ( because Card states on one of the other "twenty-something" pages that it takes 5 generations of inbreeding get back to their sire to have him stamp his color on the get. How many generations of Linebreeding to escape a "short pedigree" ?, not sure, tho I am sure Card has a quality answer on this pithy little book.
  Ok, so a short pedigree is one in which the group of birds has not been bred together for a long enough time to stabilize the gene pool according to the Standard for those birds. Something was added into the gene pool "not too far back" or the birds were of inferior quality "not too far back". And the birds are still throwing evidence of inferior quality or foreign blood. What is foreign blood? It is mixing something into the gene pool of a group of birds which isn't normally there. It can be a cross to another breed. Or a variety in a breed. Usually done to  enhance one or more qualities of the original group of birds. However, such addition of foreign blood almost always brings in unwanted genetic messengers which have to be winnowed out carefully by the breeder. Until he has brought his group of birds back to their former state of excellence with the addition of the wanted new traits ad the deletion of any unwanted traits which rode in on the wanted traits coat-tails, so to speak, grin.
One example of this "short pedigree, foreign blood" problem  is some strains of the Black Copper Marans. Early on here in the US they were crossed to Wheaten Marans to enhance some traits.   However, the cross also brought in Wheaten color genes.  This caused much effort on the part of serious Marans breeders to get those Black Coppers to breed true again and not throw Wheaten chicks or show Wheaten color tendencies in their Black Copper coloring. Even today, 15 years later, we see some Black Copper throwing Wheaten chicks. These are groups of Black Copper with "short pedigrees" influenced by the "foreign blood" of the Wheaten cross. Eventually, if the breeders select correctly, those particular Black Coppers will breed true again, having had the Wheaten influences bred out of them by careful selection. This is why you want to select your foundation birds from a breeder who has line bred their birds for many generations and can compete successfully in quality competition over multiple generations. This shows the breeder has worked to stabilize the bird's gene pool according to the Standard for that breed.


 Best,
 Karen

Wow! So much good info there! I lost a lot more time than intended following those links - and bookmarked them for further reading later. Thank you so much!

 

[Wisher1000]

Quote:
Well, my experience seems to support this. The "purple black Ameraucana" I bought because I liked his size and type is now a, mostly, green bird. There is still some purple sheen in his feathers, but what stands out on him now is the green. I have to assume that nutrition is the cause of the change, it isn't likely to be genetic at this point. He was over a year old when I got him. I will use him over my hens next season without hesitation and am excited to see what he produces.

 

[cyborg]

Hi Beth, 
Purple sheen can be a sign of improper nutrition.  And improper raising of the chicks. It's an interesting subject with more to it than that. Much written on the Net about it. An interesting study.   Poultry breeders are very opinionated about it and the positive value of the green sheen.
http://tinyurl.com/1hhpsk4  Page 81, purple and green barring.
---------------------------
https://www.archive.org/details/cu31924003158312 Pages 26 and 29 and 2 other places in the book. This is one of my fav books about poultry breeding. The info you are looking for is on page 27 of this book. The books' page, not any page declared by archive.org ( which is sometimes not the same, smile_.
Ok, so you may be wondering what is a "short pedigree" and foreign blood". I would hazard an educated guess that a short pedigree is less than 5 generations of inbreeding ( because Card states on one of the other "twenty-something" pages that it takes 5 generations of inbreeding get back to their sire to have him stamp his color on the get. How many generations of Linebreeding to escape a "short pedigree" ?, not sure, tho I am sure Card has a quality answer on this pithy little book.
  Ok, so a short pedigree is one in which the group of birds has not been bred together for a long enough time to stabilize the gene pool according to the Standard for those birds. Something was added into the gene pool "not too far back" or the birds were of inferior quality "not too far back". And the birds are still throwing evidence of inferior quality or foreign blood. What is foreign blood? It is mixing something into the gene pool of a group of birds which isn't normally there. It can be a cross to another breed. Or a variety in a breed. Usually done to  enhance one or more qualities of the original group of birds. However, such addition of foreign blood almost always brings in unwanted genetic messengers which have to be winnowed out carefully by the breeder. Until he has brought his group of birds back to their former state of excellence with the addition of the wanted new traits ad the deletion of any unwanted traits which rode in on the wanted traits coat-tails, so to speak, grin.
One example of this "short pedigree, foreign blood" problem  is some strains of the Black Copper Marans. Early on here in the US they were crossed to Wheaten Marans to enhance some traits.   However, the cross also brought in Wheaten color genes.  This caused much effort on the part of serious Marans breeders to get those Black Coppers to breed true again and not throw Wheaten chicks or show Wheaten color tendencies in their Black Copper coloring. Even today, 15 years later, we see some Black Copper throwing Wheaten chicks. These are groups of Black Copper with "short pedigrees" influenced by the "foreign blood" of the Wheaten cross. Eventually, if the breeders select correctly, those particular Black Coppers will breed true again, having had the Wheaten influences bred out of them by careful selection. This is why you want to select your foundation birds from a breeder who has line bred their birds for many generations and can compete successfully in quality competition over multiple generations. This shows the breeder has worked to stabilize the bird's gene pool according to the Standard for that breed.


 Best,
 Karen

Wow! So much good info there! I lost a lot more time than intended following those links - and bookmarked them for further reading later. Thank you so much!

Hmmm. Just looked up Card's book on Amazon, and a reprint is available for less than 10 bucks. Sounds like a wealth of knowledge, so I had to order it!

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

In a bit of a late decision this spring I switched from doing exclusively broody chick hatching and raising to buying incubator, hatcher, brooder equipment and using that exclusively. It's been a lot of changing things to get my system figured out. A lot more work for me compared to having the broodies do it for me. And a LOT more expensive.

It took me a while to get my incubator/hatcher settings tweaked, and I made some changes to feed and stuff along the way for better results. It has been a bit stress for me, the need to be so constantly attentive and responsive.

On the positive side, I did manage to hatch more chicks, hatch them faster, and I think the chicks are growing faster. So far the pullets and cockerels I've moved to the bigger coops with pastures seem to be healthy and continuing to grow well (so far no predator attacks or cocci episodes). I think this will make it easier when it comes time to sort them for potential breeders.

I still haven't decided which I think is better for me, my breeding program, or the birds. Maybe it's some & some. If I'm going for numbers (and faster progress), artificial incubation and brooding seems to be the way to go. But since I'm working with a Dual Purpose Large Fowl breed that's attractive to self-sustainable pasture operations, I do believe there's a lot of value to knowing the birds can hatch and raise themselves.

 

[Sydney Acres]

In a bit of a late decision this spring I switched from doing exclusively broody chick hatching and raising to buying incubator, hatcher, brooder equipment and using that exclusively. It's been a lot of changing things to get my system figured out. A lot more work for me compared to having the broodies do it for me. And a LOT more expensive.

It took me a while to get my incubator/hatcher settings tweaked, and I made some changes to feed and stuff along the way for better results. It has been a bit stress for me, the need to be so constantly attentive and responsive.

On the positive side, I did manage to hatch more chicks, hatch them faster, and I think the chicks are growing faster. So far the pullets and cockerels I've moved to the bigger coops with pastures seem to be healthy and continuing to grow well (so far no predator attacks or cocci episodes). I think this will make it easier when it comes time to sort them for potential breeders.

I still haven't decided which I think is better for me, my breeding program, or the birds. Maybe it's some & some. If I'm going for numbers (and faster progress), artificial incubation and brooding seems to be the way to go. But since I'm working with a Dual Purpose Large Fowl breed that's attractive to self-sustainable pasture operations, I do believe there's a lot of value to knowing the birds can hatch and raise themselves.

When you say that the brooder chicks may be growing faster than the broody chicks, do you mean by weight, skeletal size, or quicker onset of maturity (i.e., feathering out faster, first successful flight, first attempt to perch, etc)? I would agree that they probably do grow in weight and skeletal size quicker when brooder raised than when broody raised, as there's little to do in a brooder than eat, sleep, and play with their clutch mates in a small space. That lifestyle does encourage eating a larger volume of food, and therefore more rapid growth. That's ideal when you're raising birds for slaughter, but maybe not as desirable when raising breeders that you are selecting for joint health and longevity. I would not agree that the broody raised chicks are slower to reach other markers of maturity, at least not with my Dorkings. My broody raised chicks usually hatch at 18-20 days, feather out faster, try flying earlier, and start perching younger (which I know is controversial regarding crooked keels, which luckily I have not seen in my line) than my brooder raised chicks. I would consider them to be reaching markers of maturation earlier than the brooder chicks.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

They seem faster to mature by all measures. But of course I've had the opportunity to observe these more closely, in age groups instead of a mixed flock situation. And that's very different.

With most broody raised clutches I have quite a time getting them to roost, but with these they've picked it up pretty fast once they graduate to the big coops where I have either a cock or cockerel to show them the ropes. My roosts are low, They really want to roost and will find all kinds of creative places to roost, so I don't even want to mess with a no roost situation ... I'd have birds in the trees instead of the coop.

We added roosts to the transitional coop today and they seem confused -- there is no mentor bird in the transitional coop They adapt to coop/pasture life faster than I thought they would.

I do wonder if their bones and joints and immunities will be as healthy as they don't run around in the sunshine as early, but they seem good so far. I'm curious to see if they lay sooner or what.

 

[islandgirl82]

Off topic but I have a question about color leakage vs. stress.

My flock suffered a stray dog attack about a month and a half ago. My Silver Laced Wyandotte hen was killed and I caught one of the dogs as she was chewing on the wing of my Golden Spangled Hamburg hen. Several of the tail feathers and all but two of her primary feathers were ripped out of that wing along with much of her flesh. I didn't think she would survive but 2 days in the infirmary and she was ready to rejoin the flock. I was surprised she even survived and even more so when her feathers actually grew back in. The tips of each of the feathers grew in white which has never happened before (after molting). Is this due to poor genetics or could it be caused by the stress of what she endured?

 

[Yellow House Farm]

Off topic but I have a question about color leakage vs. stress.

My flock suffered a stray dog attack about a month and a half ago. My Silver Laced Wyandotte hen was killed and I caught one of the dogs as she was chewing on the wing of my Golden Spangled Hamburg hen. Several of the tail feathers and all but two of her primary feathers were ripped out of that wing along with much of her flesh. I didn't think she would survive but 2 days in the infirmary and she was ready to rejoin the flock. I was surprised she even survived and even more so when her feathers actually grew back in. The tips of each of the feathers grew in white which has never happened before (after molting). Is this due to poor genetics or could it be caused by the stress of what she endured?

Yes, stress. I'm trying to remember exactly how it works but can't off-hand.

 

[islandgirl82]

Quote:

Thank you. I don't intend on breeding her as I don't have a GSH rooster to pair her with (if I could find one it would be a different story). Simply curiosity. Do you know, will the tips always remain white or go back to being as they were when she molts again?