A Heritage of Perfection: Standard-bred Large Fowl

[Yellow House Farm]

I do wonder if their bones and joints and immunities will be as healthy as they don't run around in the sunshine as early, but they seem good so far. I'm curious to see if they lay sooner or what.

Structurally speaking, they're going to be fine. There will be no difference.

The advantages I can see for natural incubation: less money for electricity, less hands on care, ability to turn out on range earlier, extremely rare instance of cannibalism; disadvantages: much, much harder to hatch in number, if one hatches many broods, the care complicates quickly as well as the need for broody coops, random availability and the general capriciousness of individuality.

The advantages of artificial incubation: assuming respectable egg availability and fertility, much--much more control over dates and numbers, which leads to easier systematization. Increased numbers and predictable dates enable stock improvement. Disadvantages: more expensive energy-wise, slightly more care, but once you're old hat, not really a lot, increased probability of cannibalism, large numbers signify that one must very aware of floor-space needs and respond at the moment, or before the moment, of need lest cannibalism, etc. break out, longer wait for turning out on free-range.

As for the dual-purpose need for broodiness, first of all, it's not hard to select for broodiness. You're not going to do a lick of damage on that front by opting for artificial incubation. Natural tendency towards reproductivity is much more resilient than that.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

Structurally speaking, they're going to be fine. There will be no difference.

The advantages I can see for natural incubation: less money for electricity, less hands on care, ability to turn out on range earlier, extremely rare instance of cannibalism; disadvantages: much, much harder to hatch in number, if one hatches many broods, the care complicates quickly as well as the need for broody coops, random availability and the general capriciousness of individuality.

The advantages of artificial incubation: assuming respectable egg availability and fertility, much--much more control over dates and numbers, which leads to easier systematization. Increased numbers and predictable dates enable stock improvement. Disadvantages: more expensive energy-wise, slightly more care, but once you're old hat, not really a lot, increased probability of cannibalism, large numbers signify that one must very aware of floor-space needs and respond at the moment, or before the moment, of need lest cannibalism, etc. break out, longer wait for turning out on free-range.

As for the dual-purpose need for broodiness, first of all, it's not hard to select for broodiness. You're not going to do a lick of damage on that front by opting for artificial incubation. Natural tendency towards reproductivity is much more resilient than that.

I hadn't really had a Delaware tell me she was serious about being broody until after I switched to the incubator, so I wasn't sure. The hatchery hens/mutts had been my broody source before that, and they were good at it. I haven't tested a Delaware yet, not sure I will as I don't want to try to be in two places at once. The broody Delawares in the laying flock have gotten sweet about me handling them, and that's maybe an improvement over the hatchery hens, many of whom were wonderfully fierce. But I have no clue if they'd be good mothers.

While using broody hens we got some decent systems in place for letting the chicks eat, and could start a fair number of eggs at once using a two-hen broody enclosure with stuff we already had on hand, and could start clutches weekly, which is how I'm doing it in the incubators. The broodies were simple and fairly reliable as long as the weather is spring-ish. Chicks are integrated from day one, and we had very few losses. The main drawback was waiting for the hens to go broody. The broody hen system was sure a lot cheaper and easier.

So far, the three main pros of artificial incubation for me are: 1) being able to hatch chicks any time, assuming I have fertile eggs; 2) the chicks having nothing better to do than eat and grow (like @Sydney Acres said); 3) being able to keep chicks from different breeding pens straight -- probably possible with broody hens, but would have required a bunch of changes anyway.

 

[Fentress]

I like Yellow Houses explanation of the relative advantages and disadvantages of the two systems. I would concur that it would be difficult to scale up to any real degree with broodies. The flock poses no real threat to the chicks, but other broodies do, so for me, there is a limit as to how many broods you can have on the yard, plus the other management issues. It is a great and fun system for low production. However, if I showed my stock and if my top lines were consistent producers, I would hatch them with broodies. A broody raised K or P, raised on pasture, glows with a fit and finish that is superior to chicks you brood yourself.

 

[NanaKat]

This year has been the year of the broody hen here! So far 30 broods of chicks have been raised by broody mothers both large fowl and bantam. Several hens are now raising a second clutch.
I have also incubated eggs giving hatched chicks to the broody mom to foster rather than put those chicks in the brooder boxes.
Chicks hatched have been Columbian Wyandotte, White Wyandotte, some White over CW, a few Buckeye (fertility has been low), BB&S Cochin, and bantam OEGB, Rosecomb and Delaware (also low fertility this year).
Broody hens have been Wyandotte, Wyandotte X Cochin, Cochin, Serama, OEGB, Delaware and Rosecomb along with two Bantam Cochin cross hens. All but the Bantam Delaware have been great mothers.
For some reason, the two first time Delaware hens refused to brood in a brood cage, wanting to brood in their pens. They struggled when the chicks hatched to keep their clutches together so I moved them to a brood cage until the chicks were a week old. This improved their mothering skills and they were better on the ground until a snake decided to raid one pen.

By toe punching incubator chicks by pen number and giving each broody hen only eggs from one pen, I could toe punch her hatch thus keeping track of pen production.
Foster chicks were anywhere from 1 day to 3 day old when added to the hen's clutch on day one of hatch. The foster chicks were already toe punched and the hen's clutch was toe punched on day 2.

Chicks were moved to the ground after 3 to 5 days in a brood cage...depending on rain. Hens were free to take their chicks from the brooder room to the hen house and outside to freerange when she was ready. Some immediately took their chicks outside, some wated a week.

I need to crunch the numbers on the pens, but estimate that 230 chicks were broody hatched and 150 chicks were fostered.

There are currently six more hens sitting on eggs that should hatch within the next two weeks. But only six 1 day old chicks and 12 eggs in the incubator to hatch this week.
I won't incubate any more this summer until an October test hatch on the 18 month old Columbian pen. Those will be brooder raised unless Old Faithful decides she wants to raise another fall clutch.

Admittedly there are pros and cons for each method of hatching and raising chicks. I had to develop a method for determining age for growth comparison for the breed pen chicks. I used a different colored leg tie for each two weeks over the hatching season switching to same colored leg coil bands at the four month stage.

 

[Fentress]

Great post. Tracking age is an issue. What type of leg tie do you use on a chick? You have a brooder room? After hatch, the broods return to bed down there or I assume where ever they choose. I guess my issue is the inconvience of having them spread out in every nook and cranny and the access issues that creates, when it is time to evaluate, change marks/bands or cull. The standard bred BR that I have now are more docile than the hatchery stock, so a bit easier to handle and of course it is done at night. Pens would be easier, but I can't stomach pens, no offense meant to anyone.

With that many broods in contact with each other, what is the level of violence? I have Kraienkoppes and they will get after each other's chicks, sometimes in a vicious way.

Thanks for the post.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

This year I was going to wing band chicks right out of the hatcher. But there is just not enough wing webbing on most of them. So at first I tried tiny zip ties ... but my chicks' legs grow so fast I was having to change them out every couple days (put them on too loose and they fall off, put them on tight enough to say, and three days later they're too tight). So then I used non-toxic sharpies on their heads (buff down, so that works here) and then wing band at about 3 weeks. Not a perfect solution, but one that works okay for me (see next paragraph). This was theoretically so I could do detailed growth rate tracking ... but weighing them all weekly turned out to be too much awkward work for me to do alone. I'll have to make a little box to fit over the scales so the birds stay put long enough for me to take notes.

I got the type of wing bands you push through by hand ... turns out I get super faint when they "pop" through. So I have to get someone to do that for me. I'm thinking maybe the ones you punch through with the little special pliers might not make me faint ...

... so I might try those next.

Or next year I may try toe punching, but something about that doesn't appeal to me, either.

A bunch of little cages drives me batty. This is the thing I like the least about hand-brooding the chicks. I use chick booster in the water, so that means I can't do an automatic watering system for them. After this season I'm going to adjust my setup so at least the brooder stalls are easier for me to get into and out of, which may help with my attitude and speed up my system.

 

[Sydney Acres]

I use different colored zip ties to identify pedigree. I put it on my calendar to check them twice weekly for fit, but I'm handling the chicks every day so it's not such a difficult thing to do. I can start them 10-20% looser on my Dorkings because of the 5th toe -- it keeps the zip tie from falling down to the foot. Finally, something that the problematic 5th toe is useful for -- something other than getting injured in one of a hundred ways, interfering with the spur, disqualifying a chick because it isn't right or it isn't there, being at the wrong angle and puncturing wounds into the other toes, etc.!!

 

[NanaKat]

Great post. Tracking age is an issue. What type of leg tie do you use on a chick? You have a brooder room? After hatch, the broods return to bed down there or I assume where ever they choose. I guess my issue is the inconvience of having them spread out in every nook and cranny and the access issues that creates, when it is time to evaluate, change marks/bands or cull. The standard bred BR that I have now are more docile than the hatchery stock, so a bit easier to handle and of course it is done at night. Pens would be easier, but I can't stomach pens, no offense meant to anyone.

With that many broods in contact with each other, what is the level of violence? I have Kraienkoppes and they will get after each other's chicks, sometimes in a vicious way.

Thanks for the post.

I use colored zip ties for the leg ties. I put them on when the chicks are 4 weeks old. At night, each hen takes her brood to the same area in the hen house or brooder room which has a doorway between the two rooms. This makes it easy to corral her and her chicks with a portable pen to check the leg bands. I cut them about 1/2 inch longer than the "clasp" and can use a pointed tool to adjust the size.
I also had Cochin and Wyandotte hens brood in their big breed pens ( 10 X 16 and 12 X 14). Those chicks could be checked during the day.
Once chicks are weaned by the hen, I move the breed pen chicks to a juvenile yard where they have their own coop and area to free range. Their leg bands are checked twice a week and then monthly on the plastic coils.
Chicks are assessed for keepers and culls at regular stages. A keeper gets a gold coil on the "free" leg or a pink one for a cull. Make butcher day easier.
Chicks are separated by sex at six months.

The Wyandotte and Cochin hens have been great mothers who protect their clutch, yet acclimate to the hen house nicely. The roosters in the layer flock include four Wyandotte and one Buckeye. They take their group of hens to different areas of the barn yard to free range each day and the hens return at their time to lay in the twenty nest boxes. There have been no skirmishes between the hens nor issues with the chicks. Even the banty roosters are good with chicks.

I'm culling for characteristics on a weekly basis after feathering on the Columbian, checking leg color, combs for flaws, stance, keels, etc. Many of the Cochin chicks were sold at 5 months...only three cockerels this year....must have been the pullet pixie dust sprinkled on the eggs this year.

A few pictures of the brooder room, cages on shelving, floor pen. The brooder room has a concrete floor, while the hen house is a dirt floor with deep litter.

This is the spring toe punch I use. Easy to use and I keep a fine point tweezer with it to remove the tiny skin flap so it doesn't fill in the tiny hole. Heals quickly.

 

[gjensen]

I like Yellow Houses explanation of the relative advantages and disadvantages of the two systems. I would concur that it would be difficult to scale up to any real degree with broodies. The flock poses no real threat to the chicks, but other broodies do, so for me, there is a limit as to how many broods you can have on the yard, plus the other management issues. It is a great and fun system for low production. However, if I showed my stock and if my top lines were consistent producers, I would hatch them with broodies. A broody raised K or P, raised on pasture, glows with a fit and finish that is superior to chicks you brood yourself.

I find that the brooding hens tolerate each other and their chicks fine. I set them up in their own mobile "tractor", and about 40' apart. I let them out every day, and they all find their own way.

I do not find that chicks hatched and raised by a hen is healthier. I think that is a wife's tail perpetuated endlessly. When chicks are raised on "pasture" they do as well as those with a brooding hen on pasture. They grow faster if the sexes are separated when they can be identified. The key is fresh air, sunshine, clean and cool water, good and fresh feed, and raised on lush and tender greens. The criteria can be met either way. What cannot be beat is birds raised on good "pasture" (not to be confused with ruminants). Chicks raised by a hen on poor ground and infested ground will do as poorly as chicks raised in a dirty brooder. Good management, and the best of the fundamentals is key.

Enough birds can effectively be raised by either method. I disagree with Joseph here. A single hen can set a dozen eggs. That is eight hens for 96 chicks (in theory). If eight setting hens cannot be accommodated, then it is likely that raising birds in any qty. is not a practical option anyways. Let us not forget that some of the best breeders ever, exclusively raised their birds using this method.

Both methods are fine. Any difficulty can be overcome with good management, and the want to. I appreciate both. I set what I need to raise, and let my broody hens raise a batch. Their is advantages and disadvantages to both.

No one should allow anyone to discourage them from enjoying the experience of either method. Choose for yourself. Just do it well.

 

[NanaKat]

Thought I'd post a few photos of one of the 13 month old cocks I've reserved for the Columbian Wyandotte breed pen for 2017.
I'm really pleased with how they are growing out better than their sire and grandfather, but this one really is particularly a nice example of the time and effort I've put in on improving my Heritage birds with the SOP goals. I've tried not to be blind to any faults. Culling has been stringent this year. Two 13 month old and three 9 month old cockerels are currently on the keeper list.

The heart shaped body type, wide tail, nice wing carriage even with 100 degree temperatures and good yellow legs with a wide stance. He is as heavy as he looks too... a nice 7.8 pounds. By spring he will be right in line with the SOP of 8.5 pounds.

A crisp white with no mossing and nice contrast of black with white edging. The comb and wattle texture is nicely pebbled on the broad head.


The comb hugs the contour of the head with a single leader...a big improvement from the monster combs of the past few years.

A nice broad back from shoulders to rear with that nice white back.

He stands on guard yet maintains the heart shape. He is already a good flock leader with the layer flock he ranges with during the day. He is gentle with the hens and yet watchful and alert.